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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - September 10 2018 :  09:50:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim, I like the 5-5-5 numbers better than 3-3-3. Gives me more time to catch up. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - September 11 2018 :  01:55:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill, thanks for your kind words. I really am impressed with the K6s overall, but there are certainly areas that still need to be tweaked a bit. The good news is that grips and sights are easy fixes.

I'm reminded that S&W and Colt have had their own share of firing pin issues through the years, so it's not unheard of, but it was disappointing nonetheless. With such a small sample, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping generalizations yet. The guns I've worked with have been rock solid, and I have no reason to believe that's not representative of the entire production, minus a few outliers.

Rest assured, I've got direct communications with Kimber, and they're getting the feedback.

Mike
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - September 11 2018 :  02:18:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage"

Jim H



Jim, that's a fascinating observation, and worth greater exploration.

It seems to me that we've seen a number of issues creep into the mix since the wholesale transition to autos, and that would be another to add to the list.

Mike
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - September 11 2018 :  02:19:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill, thanks for your kind words. I really am impressed with the K6s overall, but there are certainly areas that still need to be tweaked a bit. The good news is that grips and sights are easy fixes.

I'm reminded that S&W and Colt have had their own share of firing pin issues through the years, so it's not unheard of, but it was disappointing nonetheless. With such a small sample, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping generalizations yet. The guns I've worked with have been rock solid, and I have no reason to believe that's not representative of the entire production, minus a few outliers.

Rest assured, I've got direct communications with Kimber, and they're getting the feedback.

Mike
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - September 13 2018 :  08:25:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage"

Jim H



Jim, that's a fascinating observation, and worth greater exploration.

It seems to me that we've seen a number of issues creep into the mix since the wholesale transition to autos, and that would be another to add to the list.

Mike



I am hearing it more and more in training. I first tumbled on the phenomenon (probably belatedly) when I was looking for something entirely different and was watching some LE shooting videos.

I viewed 9 videos and realized that in 9 police shootings four of the officers experienced a stoppage early on in the fight! 45%! Now I think that was certainly just a matter of luck. I think if you reviewed 100 cases you likely would not come up with nearly that many - not even close.

Then I realized that many of the encounters where I had questioned one of the participants or a witness they had experienced a stoppage - one, which involved 13 hits from two officers, both officers had experienced a stoppage in their .40 caliber pistols during the shooting.

BTW 12 good hits (5 heart hits) in that incident failed but the 13th, a head shot, worked. I know one of the officers, he is a firearms instructor for a large PD and a great shot!

The subject was likely both crazy and on drugs. He was not a big guy. He severely injured one officer even after being shot (during the time it took to clear the stoppages).

Jim H.




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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - September 16 2018 :  10:47:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's not just a pistol phenomenon. In the recent Fifth Third Bank Center shooting in Cincinnatti, one of the officers got a stoppage after the first round in his patrol rifle, and went to the handgun backup.

I'm curious about the .40 incident you mentioned. When the light, 165 grain loads were just becoming popular, there were several notable incidents where stoppages occurred, because the loads didn't have enough surplus energy to overcome weak shooting platforms. Makes me curious which loads were being used in the incident you quoted.

Mike
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - September 17 2018 :  09:58:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a theory regarding the too-high percentages of malfunctions in LEO hands; it goes like this:

Nowadays, a large percentage of the young(er) officers out there simply aren't 'gun people', and the sidearm is basically just another thing hanging on the belt. For whatever reason, many don't realize that it the primary piece of equipment that MUST work when it's needed; a pen running out of ink, or a misspelled word in a report can be fixed 'at leisure', but if the gun comes into play, it's life or death. Since it's just another hangy down thing on the belt, though, it won't get cleaned and maintained any more than the handcuff case or the---well, whatever. Not to mention, if he/she isn't a 'gun guy/gal', there won't likely be much practicing and training beyond what the agency requires--and even then, who knows how much attention they pay during those sessions?
Even back in the 80's and 90's, when I was doing it, there were too many who only shot their weapon at qualification time, and then some would just reload, stick it in the holster and off they go. Some who did clean the weapon after quals had to have a refresher on stripping it down and where to put the oil.

I base this on the fact that so many 'gun guys' will use ours on a frequent basis, sometimes hundreds of rounds at a time, our guns may be identical or nearly so to the LEO's, yet we very seldom have malfunctions (note I said 'very seldom', not 'never').

Anyway, with the posts about LEO weapon malfs, that's what came to mind. I could be wrong, I was that one other time. Now I'm going to work--with a clean and fairly frequently shot .44Spl on the belt. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - September 17 2018 :  11:47:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

It's not just a pistol phenomenon. In the recent Fifth Third Bank Center shooting in Cincinnatti, one of the officers got a stoppage after the first round in his patrol rifle, and went to the handgun backup.

I'm curious about the .40 incident you mentioned. When the light, 165 grain loads were just becoming popular, there were several notable incidents where stoppages occurred, because the loads didn't have enough surplus energy to overcome weak shooting platforms. Makes me curious which loads were being used in the incident you quoted.

Mike



Oddly enough, the load used was 165 Gold Dot (the full power load that hits 1100+).

One of the officers I think was trying to fire his gun under his arm to the rear while fending off blows from the subject who was beating him with a handgun (that apparently malfunctioned as well).

Not sure about the other stoppage but it came early on and was cleared fairly quickly. The wounded officer got two hits the unwounded one 11 hits - including the head shot that finished the ordeal.

Jim.

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - September 26 2018 :  3:35:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, dunno what's going on, but I just tried to post a comment on the article about fiber optic sights, and got a 'GO DADDY' thing that said comments are being blocked on the site. Is it just me, or what? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - September 26 2018 :  4:18:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I have a theory regarding the too-high percentages of malfunctions in LEO hands; it goes like this:

Nowadays, a large percentage of the young(er) officers out there simply aren't 'gun people', and the sidearm is basically just another thing hanging on the belt. For whatever reason, many don't realize that it the primary piece of equipment that MUST work when it's needed; a pen running out of ink, or a misspelled word in a report can be fixed 'at leisure', but if the gun comes into play, it's life or death. Since it's just another hangy down thing on the belt, though, it won't get cleaned and maintained any more than the handcuff case or the---well, whatever. Not to mention, if he/she isn't a 'gun guy/gal', there won't likely be much practicing and training beyond what the agency requires--and even then, who knows how much attention they pay during those sessions?
Even back in the 80's and 90's, when I was doing it, there were too many who only shot their weapon at qualification time, and then some would just reload, stick it in the holster and off they go. Some who did clean the weapon after quals had to have a refresher on stripping it down and where to put the oil.

I base this on the fact that so many 'gun guys' will use ours on a frequent basis, sometimes hundreds of rounds at a time, our guns may be identical or nearly so to the LEO's, yet we very seldom have malfunctions (note I said 'very seldom', not 'never').

Anyway, with the posts about LEO weapon malfs, that's what came to mind. I could be wrong, I was that one other time. Now I'm going to work--with a clean and fairly frequently shot .44Spl on the belt. Ace



+1. Excellent observation. Another observation on my part...
Many LEOs go home at the end of their shift, remove the magazine, remove the chambered round, and set it next to the magazine. When they go back on duty they take the magazine, insert, chamber, then remove the magazine and insert the previously extracted round on top - and go to work.

The top two rounds in the gun are repeatedly chambered, extracted, re-chambered, and alternated. That's a good way to beat up a round.... not much different than what happens with a 30-30 tubular magazine lever gun when the only way to clear it is to jack each round out of the gun through the chamber. Three or four hunting trips and they look 'pretty rough".

Since the top two rounds are undergoing that on a daily basis, it doesn't surprise me that some kinda malf happens within the first two rounds when they have to be fired months later. They have been abused via repeated extraction (rim) and chambering (bullet set back?).

IMHO, that goes a long way in explaining first or second round malfunctions. Add not properly cleaning the gun, and life gets worse in a hurry.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - September 26 2018 :  11:04:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tried again to post a comment, got blocked again.

BITD, I would rotate the top two rounds in my duty S&W 645, as Chris described; wanted to keep the gun unloaded for when the daughter had friends over, just in case. One thing I did to hopefully prevent damage to the rounds was to rotate those two to the bottom of my third magazine after two or three weeks. Never saw any signs of trouble, and after that mag was full of 'rotated' rounds, I'd shoot them up and replace with new ammo--then that would become my 'in gun' mag, and the previous one became the third in line. Never did have one fail to fire or feed, but I could see the possibility.
I do remember a Lieutenant, maybe a couple of Sergeants, who woulda had kittens if they knew I was buying my own ammo to replace what I shot up. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - September 27 2018 :  08:48:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Along the lines Chris suggested, I ran a gun shop for about 4 years working mainly on weekends since I also was a full time instructor for the N.G.

It was quite common for someone, mostly females but still a surprising number of males, who would bring in a small .380 or 9mm auto which they said did not work.

One of the staff (we had three ladies that could really shoot who worked there) or myself would take the gun out and fire off a magazine (at our expense) and I can only recall one or two that actually had a problem.

More often than not, the gun had been purchased for a wife or girl friend by the guy who had read what a good gun it was for a woman in a magazine - go figure.

We would explain carefully that one has to actually have a grip on the gun for the little ones to work. I've fired hundreds of rounds in demos with a 1911 only holding it with the thumb and trigger finger - but the little ones are less forgiving.

Jim H.

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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
923 Posts

Posted - September 28 2018 :  10:32:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recall being borrowed by the armorer to help doing the semi-annual sidearm inspection/cleaning/test fire. I clearly recall a couple of examples that had strange growths in the barrel from not doing the mandatory cleaning after training. Pity that was before cell phone cameras. They did manage to get a pic of the worst example that got blown up to impressive size and posted on a wall. Then someone decided that was "shaming" or something and it disappeared.

Jim's last point isn't limited to gals. I had a guy show up for a class and he mentioned he had a Beretta 85(? big .380) that had been back to the factory several times because it malfunctioned repeatedly. I took it and ran all his loaded mags without issue. I suggested he hold it more firmly.

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - September 28 2018 :  11:54:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some people seemed to be geared towards believing that any product will work (wait for it) flawlessly...with absolutely no effort on their part.

These are likely the same people who don't change the oil in their vehicles, the air filters in their AC systems, and then wonder why their cell phones die when they forget to charge them. Most, I suspect, are Bernie Sanders supporters

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 01 2018 :  03:19:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

OK, dunno what's going on, but I just tried to post a comment on the article about fiber optic sights, and got a 'GO DADDY' thing that said comments are being blocked on the site. Is it just me, or what? Ace



Ace, sorry about that! We got hacked and part of the problem is that comments are not posting. We're working on it!

We can still push articles out, but the comments are broken for now. Looks loke some of the older material is being affected too.

Damn hackers! They need to rot.

Thanks for your patience!

Mike
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - October 01 2018 :  09:41:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Patience?! What patience? I'm gonna mail my comments to you snail mail. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 01 2018 :  2:12:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ha! A RevolverGuy wouldn't bat an eye over that. Most of the self-chucker guys wouldn't know where to start. If you write it in cursive, it will be like a millenial-proof secret code.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5183 Posts

Posted - October 01 2018 :  2:32:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Many of us are fluent in cursive, but Rule 1 prevents us from proving it...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 01 2018 2:34:28 PM
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 02 2018 :  01:54:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 03 2018 :  03:12:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RevolverGuy comments are fixed. Fire for effect, Ace!
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - October 03 2018 :  09:39:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, but I forgot what I wanted to say. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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