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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1688 Posts

Posted - July 24 2018 :  11:57:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill



So.... seeing what you’ve seen, and knowing what you know... if you were looking to buy a 1911 today— old/used or new— which one(s) would be on your list?

Any particular year/make/model that would be your #1 choice?






Hi, N0.1 COLT

No.2 Colt

No.3 Colt

No.4 SIG

Hi, I don't see any difference between model 70 or 80 I think this is hyperbole. This gives the gun writers something to write about. Col. Cooper talked about dropping the 1911 on it's hammer and the bullet hitting the shooter under the chin. This may or may not have happened to Melvin Purvis. When I sold guns Kimber was a hard company to deal with. They routinely shipped pistols with cosmetic defects. What's the most popular 1911? probably Kimber. I include SIG as the few I've seen had triggers "like a breaking glass rod". I have never used the other brands except for Springfield. My current favorite Colt's are a pair of XSE's in Govt. and Cmdr. YMMV, as all experience are not equal or shared, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - July 24 2018 :  12:49:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Mike!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on July 24 2018 12:51:37 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - July 24 2018 :  12:51:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill



So.... seeing what you’ve seen, and knowing what you know... if you were looking to buy a 1911 today— old/used or new— which one(s) would be on your list?

Any particular year/make/model that would be your #1 choice?






I guess I could most honestly answer that by looking at the ones I own. In some semblance of order or preference they would be:

A Colt made from around 1946 to 1969

Any World War I 1911 in good shape (Remington UMC, Springfield Armory, Colt)*

Any 1911a1 Colt or Contract Maker*

A Series 70 Colt

Springfield Armory standard models (but there was a period of "square" front straps and dust covers I'd avoid)

Dan Wesson USA

"Series 1" Kimber Custom Classic (they really aren't labeled that but have no FP block) - not any of the high $$ ones like Match or Gold etc. (I own 7 of these but only shoot about 4 - I have collectively over 80,000 rounds through them with very few stoppages and no broken parts - though I've seen some break in classes - they also have MIM action parts).

Ruger SR 1911 (these seem to work but they have some MIM parts in the action I worry about).

S&W E series

Sig 1911 seem OK but the square slide causes holster issues (as in there are not as many available).

*If you plan on shooting much more than 100,000 rounds I'd pick something harder than the old ones but they still last and last (I've seen them go a documented 400,000 but some parts were changed).

While I cannot bring myself to recommend cheap guns, I've had a lot of RIAs in classes - they historically have worked better than the modern plastic pistols and I have not seen any break (though they should at the price).

I have not been able to ring out the CZ (not USA) or the Tsias but folks I trust seem to think highly of them. No idea on the High Standard and new Ithica but I've looked them over and they seem put together correctly.

I may have overlooked a few, handling lots of traffic this morning for some reason.

Jim

[/quote]

Thanks, Jim!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on July 24 2018 12:54:27 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - July 27 2018 :  08:51:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RE the Series 70 vs 80 I'm not as down on series 80 guns as some, but I do think adding complication to John Moses Browning's masterpiece (not just my opinion, but his) I think is unnecessary.

I simply prefer older guns because they are made better (that said there were a few years in the 70s that both Colt and S&W lacked in quality control).

I will say, I've received a few series 80 guns, and more than one of the modern S&W standard guns (with a "Schwartz" type FP safety) that would not fire reliably. Some do not know but Colt has 4 different "sizes" of F.P. block - they pick the right one at the factory but if one does a trigger job or the trigger "wears in" that might not still be the right one after that.

I have a couple of those blocks I took out of customers guns that show "dings" where the firing pin hit the block - it is a very closely timed thing.

On the S&Ws the grip safety was depressed enough to let the hammer fall but not to raise the block enough to pass the firing pin.

Those are not all that common but it does mean to test your gun!

I test them every time I clean them with a #2 pencil - if the pencil will not "shoot" clear of the barrel at least a foot there might be an ignition problem. Yes I know that a modern striker fired gun will not do that - and I've seen ignition problems with them (also not common but they happen).

The "problem" that caused the introduction of the Colt FP block was that in a govt. test a stock 1911 would go off if you managed to drop it from a 12 ft. height and it landed on its muzzle. The inertial firing pin would "bounce" and set off a primer (it would not from 6 feet).

The fix of other companies has been to lighten the firing pin and put a strong spring in it and then it passes the test - and it does not lack positive ignition, as do many DA and striker fired designs). I do not mean to imply these designs are inadequate - it is that, as in most things, the 1911 is an "overachiever" (along with several other hammer powered SA designs).

The biggest problem with ignition systems that stop the firing pin at a fixed depth is not the gun itself but one of cartridge quality - if one gets a lot of ammo with a really hefty crimp the cartridge can go deeper into the chamber and can cause ignition problems - I've seen this with all of the major brands of ammo, but it is still rare.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3408 Posts

Posted - July 27 2018 :  10:40:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a thought... but the S&W M&P comes in... wait for it... .45 ACP!
I have one. It's sweet.

No need to worry about various 1911 'situations'. Just draw and shoot.
I love K.I.S.S

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - July 27 2018 :  11:16:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if the S&W 1911 firing pin safety wasn't timed quiet right or the shooters grip didn't fully depress the safety (the safety lever is activated by the grip safety) the firing pin would peen the plunger and cause light strikes.

everyone of the safety plungers I've checked showed some peening.

the E-series S&W 1911 did away with the safety, I think new Colts did too.

S&W has a recall on older S&W 1911s, the firing pin saftey has caused the slide to lock back disabling the gun. Colt experimented with the exact same system before the war, they dropped the idea.

Buy 1911s without the safety or take the things out (maybe not a perfect solution)

the M&P .45 has a firing pin safety too, just like a Glock

just some of the joy in selecting a 1911.......


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on July 27 2018 11:17:37 AM
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zeke
Average Member

274 Posts

Posted - July 28 2018 :  12:15:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
An empty 5 in steel 1911 still has "stopping power". An empty G19 not so much? Have several reliable 1911's, have gotten rid of several unreliable ones.
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Pat Taylor
New Member

USA
54 Posts

Posted - July 28 2018 :  7:09:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dan Wesson Heritage models can be found used on Gunbroker for $900-1000, I found one used in a LGS for $700 once but that has been a few years ago , if I wanted a 1911 to use as it came from the box that is my starting point.

If you are willing to work on one the Ruger SR1911 can be had for $600 if you watch for deals. I have seen new ones sell for $550 on GB which is around $600 once you get it into your hands. Lots of like new used ones for around that price. Once you replace the parts used to keep the price point low it will be about the price of a used Heritage but it will have the parts you prefer over what comes factory on the Heritage. If I plan on changing the pistol I start looking for a Ruger 1911.

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Pat Taylor
New Member

USA
54 Posts

Posted - July 28 2018 :  7:49:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
...and on the original post of "why" a 1911.

I am only a sample of one but the 1911 is the easiest pistol to maintain skills with that I own. I have a few 5 inch M&Ps and if I shoot enough I am about equal with one or the other. If I do not get to shoot for a while there is a difference between the plastic and the steel with the steel producing quicker and more accurate results. Just does not take as much practice to get the same results with steel.
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Tom-R2
Starting Member

USA
34 Posts

Posted - September 17 2018 :  12:25:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just finished building 2 from 80% kits, one for me and one for my brother. Both are series 70 in 45ACP, mine a full size steel, and his is a lightweight commander with a stainless slide. Both functioned well with several different rounds in a brief test after initial assembly. But neither one has been shot much yet. They are engraved and personalized. We should get together soon and run a few hundred rounds through them. He has two other 1911s, an Ed Brown and a Kimber, I have a Ruger SR1911 LW commander. I plan on shooting mine frequently and when I'm gone, it can go to one of my kids.
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
191 Posts

Posted - November 28 2018 :  4:20:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I started gunsmithing as a sideline (I've always had 2 or 3 jobs since I turned 21) in 1974. I tinkered with guns a good bit before that. While I've worked on a lot of different designs, most of the custom work I did for around 20 years was on 1911s.

I suppose I've gone through several phases of approaching the job. Certainly I have at times tried to make them as accurate as possible.

But I've come about full circle. I have a Remington Rand 1911a1 I bought off a Lexington police officer around 1973 or 4 for $35.
Jim, at age 71 I have had contact with A LOT of handgun shooters. Here for the past 15 years at the range, in contact with more than the other 40+ combined. I have come into personal contact with exactly 2 men who could outshoot a box stock gun. I have had to set up The old Ransom to prove this and still folks want to "work" on their gun's accuracy.
Now when someone says they are going to get a MATCH brl, or this or that, I pull out a barrel that I modified to shoot 45 Win Mag shot cartridges with. 0 lands and grooves and a deep cut chamber to accomodate the Win Mag brass.
So here we are with a mag full of 230 ball in 45 acp with one up. They readily understand that the cartridge is now headspacing Only on the extractor and that there are NO lands and grooves in the weapon. We then pass the gun around and every shooter hits with a head shot at 10 yards.
As most times work out...it ain't da arrow, it's da injun.
I used to carry that in my range bag to do demos with in classes and I have passed the Army rifle qualification with it 3 times - though I admit, the 300 meter target is not in much danger. But I rarely the 200 meter target and I hit the 250 often enough to be encouraging.

I also won an impromptu 100 yard pistol match at Gunsite in a class that included Navy Seals and Army SF instructors.

That isn't about any peculiar talent I have but it does illustrate the standard GI gun is more than adequate to do about any practical job we need fulfilled with a handgun (it certainly might not do, as issued, for some serious target shooting).

I also do not know of any modern manufacturer that would accept the reliability standards of the 1911a1 contract (one malfunction in 5000 rounds from one pistol pulled at random and the whole lot of 5,000 pistols was rejected).

I know of a few designs that do turn out individual pistols that are very reliable. But I don't know of any that never had a failed lot in producing around 5,000,000 pistols (by nearly half a dozen different makers). The inspector did have the option to pull another pistol from that lot and fire it 5,000 rounds. But that was the limit - so 2 stoppages in 10,000 rounds would reject the lot. I read recently that major maker of modern pistols said that passing was 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds (that maker shall remain nameless because people get into such petty arguments about this stuff and at least they were brave enough to state it, while most makers hem-haw around the issue).

I'm doing fewer classes these days but one trend that seems to be increasing is that we see LOTs more malfunctions than we used to. No doubt part of that is the decreasing quality of ammunition and some might have to do with people now often make a living in an office and don't have the grip strength they used to.

I might be described as "epidemic". Used to we might see 5 stoppages in a 5 day class (and often it was a hand-loaded ammo or a magazine issue, sometimes it was bad custom work).

The last instructors class I helped out with was 3 days (one of those days was really only about 2 hours on the range and mostly dry fire). In the remaining 2 days I saw close to 100 stoppages. And that seems to be the new norm.

But I think some of it is that quality of manufacture is going down - or perhaps is the quality of inspection?

Stoppages are in fact so common that the people having them seem to think it is "normal" - me, if I experience a stoppage I get a really "queasy" feeling! Then again I might have a stoppage every 5 years or so.

I'm not trying to imply that all new guns are bad designs. It likely boils down to a case of individual samples and the individual shooting it...along with a decline in quality of "range" ammo.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.





Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - November 28 2018 :  5:41:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BatteryOaksBilly

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I started gunsmithing as a sideline (I've always had 2 or 3 jobs since I turned 21) in 1974. I tinkered with guns a good bit before that. While I've worked on a lot of different designs, most of the custom work I did for around 20 years was on 1911s.

I suppose I've gone through several phases of approaching the job. Certainly I have at times tried to make them as accurate as possible.

But I've come about full circle. I have a Remington Rand 1911a1 I bought off a Lexington police officer around 1973 or 4 for $35.


Jim, at age 71 I have had contact with A LOT of handgun shooters. Here for the past 15 years at the range, in contact with more than the other 40+ combined. I have come into personal contact with exactly 2 men who could outshoot a box stock gun. I have had to set up The old Ransom to prove this and still folks want to "work" on their gun's accuracy.

Now when someone says they are going to get a MATCH brl, or this or that, I pull out a barrel that I modified to shoot 45 Win Mag shot cartridges with. 0 lands and grooves and a deep cut chamber to accomodate the Win Mag brass.
So here we are with a mag full of 230 ball in 45 acp with one up. They readily understand that the cartridge is now headspacing Only on the extractor and that there are NO lands and grooves in the weapon. We then pass the gun around and every shooter hits with a head shot at 10 yards.

As most times work out...it ain't da arrow, it's da injun.



I used to carry that in my range bag to do demos with in classes and I have passed the Army rifle qualification with it 3 times - though I admit, the 300 meter target is not in much danger. But I rarely the 200 meter target and I hit the 250 often enough to be encouraging.

I also won an impromptu 100 yard pistol match at Gunsite in a class that included Navy Seals and Army SF instructors.

That isn't about any peculiar talent I have but it does illustrate the standard GI gun is more than adequate to do about any practical job we need fulfilled with a handgun (it certainly might not do, as issued, for some serious target shooting).

I also do not know of any modern manufacturer that would accept the reliability standards of the 1911a1 contract (one malfunction in 5000 rounds from one pistol pulled at random and the whole lot of 5,000 pistols was rejected).

I know of a few designs that do turn out individual pistols that are very reliable. But I don't know of any that never had a failed lot in producing around 5,000,000 pistols (by nearly half a dozen different makers). The inspector did have the option to pull another pistol from that lot and fire it 5,000 rounds. But that was the limit - so 2 stoppages in 10,000 rounds would reject the lot. I read recently that major maker of modern pistols said that passing was 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds (that maker shall remain nameless because people get into such petty arguments about this stuff and at least they were brave enough to state it, while most makers hem-haw around the issue).

I'm doing fewer classes these days but one trend that seems to be increasing is that we see LOTs more malfunctions than we used to. No doubt part of that is the decreasing quality of ammunition and some might have to do with people now often make a living in an office and don't have the grip strength they used to.

I might be described as "epidemic". Used to we might see 5 stoppages in a 5 day class (and often it was a hand-loaded ammo or a magazine issue, sometimes it was bad custom work).

The last instructors class I helped out with was 3 days (one of those days was really only about 2 hours on the range and mostly dry fire). In the remaining 2 days I saw close to 100 stoppages. And that seems to be the new norm.

But I think some of it is that quality of manufacture is going down - or perhaps is the quality of inspection?

Stoppages are in fact so common that the people having them seem to think it is "normal" - me, if I experience a stoppage I get a really "queasy" feeling! Then again I might have a stoppage every 5 years or so.

I'm not trying to imply that all new guns are bad designs. It likely boils down to a case of individual samples and the individual shooting it...along with a decline in quality of "range" ammo.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.




Billy, I took the liberty of bolding your remarks to make them more read-able.

LB

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 28 2018 5:42:09 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - November 30 2018 :  08:51:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Billy,

I sort of missed that comment until Little Bill highlighted it.

Yes sir, I've actually known quite a few people who could "out shoot" several autos when fired in the ransom rest.

The challenge seems to be that the main thing that makes an auto accurate is how the barrel consistently locks up into the slide (there can be some things in the frame that affect that).

The sights are on the slide (with exceptions for frame mounted optics or a couple of .22 target pistols from the past). So if the slide does not mate to the frame perfectly (and few do) then the rest, which holds the frame, is not as accurate as a really accurate shooter.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - November 30 2018 :  10:57:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
folks that think their weapon is reliable, need to spend more time around helicoptors in a sandy environment

I would bet many of the malfunctions Jim sees, can be traced to poor maintenance and lack of lubrication.

that includes the 1911, no lube and they slow to a crawl

instructors should spend more time on the subject.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3408 Posts

Posted - November 30 2018 :  11:27:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

folks that think their weapon is reliable, need to spend more time around helicoptors in a sandy environment

I would bet many of the malfunctions Jim sees, can be traced to poor maintenance and lack of lubrication.

that includes the 1911, no lube and they slow to a crawl

instructors should spend more time on the subject.....



+1 to that. When I was actively instructing you would not believe how many guns came to the line that hadn't seen any oil since the Nixon administration. Ya can't teach someone to shoot if you have to spend their range time teaching them to maintain their handgun.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
971 Posts

Posted - December 01 2018 :  08:34:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I took my state required permit training, the instructor used an NRA training guide which had a section covering gun maintenance of your gun and he also stressed cleaning and lubing of ones gun. I can't say which students took that to heart but we didn't have any stoppages at our range time on that day.


When I took my NRA Instructor qualification training, we had 4 Police officers in the class. Three of them could not keep their service guns running during the shooting qualification test. One of them had to be lent a gun, by the instructor of the class. The guy next to me had a Ruger Mark II, in 22 LR, and it had several failures also. The instructor inspected it and it was dirty and dry. This guy owned a firing range in a nearby county. By the way he was the only 22 LR out of the 30 students. Most everyone had their EDC and qualified with it.

Pop Pop
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
191 Posts

Posted - December 01 2018 :  09:29:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Little Bill, Thanks so much. Believe me, I need all the help I can get!!!

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - December 01 2018 :  12:22:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1863 Posts

Posted - December 01 2018 :  11:26:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wrote a missive about the 1911 over at PoliceOne recently and got an interesting mix of flak and praise for it. It seems that some members of the younger generation have been programmed to distrust the design, which is a shame, because there's a lot going for it.

I say this as a shooter who is NOT a "1911-guy" at heart, but who still recognizes that the design has a lot of strengths.

I suspect that most of the distrust of the 1911 originates from these causes:

1. Improper maintenance. Springs, extractors and other parts have a service life, and need to be replaced or adjusted periodically, but many folks are negligent here. One could argue that modern designs are more tolerant of neglect, but even these won't run forever without proper maintenance;

2. Improper lubrication. The 1911 simply requires more lube than some other designs. Most shooters are lazy. Can't blame the gun for that;

3. Poor quality ammunition (.45 ACP is more expensive, and the desire to "go cheap" is alluring);

4. Tight guns. When 'smiths and manufacturers started changing the recipe to build tight guns in the quest for accuracy, it had a negative effect on reliability. I'm no 1911 expert, but I don't think it's necessary to build a tight gun to get an accurate one. I had an Argie contract 1927 that Kings Gun Works fitted a new barrel to--it rattled, but shot tight groups;

5. The rise of 3" guns. Deviating from the 5" and 4.25" formats seems to be a risky proposition. The 3" guns seem to deserve their reputation for being finicky.

Mike

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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - December 02 2018 :  4:06:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
link fit is critical, most mfgs like Colt ride the link, that's a short cut to improve accuracy and simplify assemblly, but not ideal for a long service life.

with the short slide guns, link fit and timming are even more important

the short slide gun has less room to avoid crashing into the barrel if timing is off

that's the reason so many Colt Officer Models broke bushings, the front of the slide crashed into the barrel lugs and something had to give.

going to a bushingless design didn't really solve the problem

that and "polishing" the feed ramp, those compound angles are critical to feed reliability, doesn't take much to ruin a barrel.

you can play around with magazine feed lips to correct too shallow a ramp, but it's not the correct solution.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5446 Posts

Posted - December 02 2018 :  9:05:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
'4. Tight guns.' I remember a guy, years back, who would 'customize' your 1911 for you, make it tighter and-ostensibly-more accurate. His method was to clamp the bottom of the slide in a garage bench clamp, and gradually squeeze it together until it would just barely slide on the frame. Couldn't call him a 'kitchen table gunsmith', because he did it in the garage.
Not a lot of people recommended him.... Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - December 03 2018 :  07:22:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I’ll bet he’s cheap though! And with a super-fast turnaround time! Heck, he can do the work while you wait...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on December 03 2018 07:23:31 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - December 03 2018 :  09:25:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

folks that think their weapon is reliable, need to spend more time around helicoptors in a sandy environment

I would bet many of the malfunctions Jim sees, can be traced to poor maintenance and lack of lubrication.

that includes the 1911, no lube and they slow to a crawl

instructors should spend more time on the subject.....



No doubt. I have "fixed" many an M9 that would not even eject empties with about 3-4 drops of oil (without even taking the gun apart).

Sadly in the last few years most of the stoppages I've seen are in Instructor classes - all participants either are instructors or are aspiring instructors.

Another thing I think contributes is that many people use customized guns. Just because someone hangs out a shingle does not mean they know what they are doing.

I cannot tell you how many $3000 pistols I've had to get to run for folks who sent them back to the original maker a time or two.

I fixed one in a gun store just by getting the owner to change magazines (the mags were clearly wrong - sit too low - but were marked with the gun maker's logo and it had been back to the factory - it still would not feed ball ammo!).

Jim H.

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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - December 03 2018 :  10:44:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I sure agree on $3000 1911s, no guarantee they work, I've seen too many that didn't.

it kind of goes back to calling everything that looks like a 1911, a 1911

the reason the A1 had looser tolerances was to simplify the manufacturing process, minimize hand fitting, and make parts "drop in" allowing unit level armorers to do field maintenance.

had nothing to do with reliability, handfitted original WWI 1911s were plenty reliable

after the War, military armorers began accurizing GI guns for pistol teams and off we went.

dimensions, materials, and how a 1911 is set up vary from one manufacturer to another

go back to an original 1911, feeding ball from dimpled follower in a hard ball magazine and it works

all others, who knows.....

a helicopter blasting sand into every orfice at 200 mph jams everything, not just handguns

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on December 03 2018 10:48:17 AM
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
191 Posts

Posted - December 05 2018 :  2:30:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Billy,

I sort of missed that comment until Little Bill highlighted it.

Yes sir, I've actually known quite a few people who could "out shoot" several autos when fired in the ransom rest.

The challenge seems to be that the main thing that makes an auto accurate is how the barrel consistently locks up into the slide (there can be some things in the frame that affect that).

The sights are on the slide (with exceptions for frame mounted optics or a couple of .22 target pistols from the past). So if the slide does not mate to the frame perfectly (and few do) then the rest, which holds the frame, is not as accurate as a really accurate shooter.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

Jim, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I too have known people who could outshoot the old RR. But, I have known only 2 that could out shoot what the gun was capable of out of the box. Most folks can't get out the difference in accuracy a quality 1911 can give right from the box.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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