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David
Starting Member

39 Posts

Posted - November 12 2019 :  11:02:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like a good new technology offering in multiple calibers. Has anyone tried any of these?

Evan
Administrator

34603 Posts

Posted - November 13 2019 :  3:13:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
nope

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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WR Moore
Advanced Member

USA
1009 Posts

Posted - November 13 2019 :  8:10:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Most of us prefer to let others do the beta testing on new technology. Particularly when you might be betting the rest of your life on it.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1153 Posts

Posted - November 14 2019 :  06:57:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are so many great self-defense loads available today by the various manufacturers. Personally, I favor Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester Bonded Ranger and T-Series. Based on evaluations of others, penetration and expansion tests, and shooting reports, I can't say any of these is better than the other.. It is basically a matter of personal selection. I have shot all these brands in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp. No complaints about any of them.
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hopleyyeaton
Junior Member

USA
127 Posts

Posted - November 14 2019 :  3:14:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They look like the bullets Lehigh Defense has had out for several years now which are also loaded by Underwood. I believe you can find some jello test results on youtube.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5704 Posts

Posted - November 14 2019 :  8:23:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll put my vote in the 'gimmick' column for defensive purposes, until there are enough samples to give a reasonable expectation of effectiveness. Not sure what I think of the heavy loads, like .44Mag, for hunting application, but somebody else will have to do that beta testing Mr. Moore mentioned. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5552 Posts

Posted - November 15 2019 :  8:10:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm watching the Lehigh/Honey Badger bullet evolution with a detached level of curiosity. It seems to me that for this design to work we would have to rethink some of our more recent rethinking on how bullets work in living tissue.

Until fairly recently we have equated stopping power with kinetic energy, temporary stretch cavities, permanent wound channels, "hydrostatic shock", neural shock, and the like.
Now it's simply a matter of what tissue is actually contacted by the bullet; how much is destroyed; and how much the wound track bleeds. And all handgun calibers are pretty much the same now, (i.e. feeble) so it doesn't much matter what you shoot your attacker with as long as you hit the right spot; he's not too amped up; and he bleeds out fast.

A cursory look at the Lehigh/Honey Badger bullet suggests a combination of the Roto Rooter approach combined with tapered radiating flutes, presumably to create a large cavitating "bow wave" as the bullet plows through tissue. IF that is indeed what happens and IF it creates a significant effect on target, would that not imply that there is more to this stopping power thing than just crushed tissue and blood letting? Do some of our old discredited assumptions come back into play? Or is this just another gimmick bullet that's going to perform like any other solid?

We'll figure it out when enough people and critters have been shot.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on November 15 2019 8:11:01 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5704 Posts

Posted - November 15 2019 :  9:10:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The way it's supposed to work is the little cuts in the nose will work like a buzz saw as the bullet plows through the wound channel, so more tissue is disrupted and damaged than with a 'regular' hollow point--in addition to all that stretch cavity and hydrostatic shock and neural shock and all that other stuff. At least that's how my 'referenced authority', ie: a customer at the gun shop, told me.

I just smiled as he explained.... Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5552 Posts

Posted - November 16 2019 :  09:14:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

The way it's supposed to work is the little cuts in the nose will work like a buzz saw as the bullet plows through the wound channel, so more tissue is disrupted and damaged than with a 'regular' hollow point--in addition to all that stretch cavity and hydrostatic shock and neural shock and all that other stuff. At least that's how my 'referenced authority', ie: a customer at the gun shop, told me.

I just smiled as he explained.... Ace

Then don't you need little razor blades imbedded in the bullet and a really really fast twist rate in your barrel?

Personally I still think there is more to terminal effect than perforation and bleeding. Any projectile passing through a fluid medium produces some sort of shock wave. But it "has no effect at handgun velocities". Really? It's as though the peripheral nervous system no longer exists. A solid punch in the solar plexus or a hit in the nuts doesn't leave a crush cavity or permanent wound channel either. Thank God!!

Medical science only recognizes what can be quantified, replicated, explained, and peer reviewed. Wound channels and bleeding can be observed. Peripheral neurologic effects of the bullet impact can only be measured if the subject is wired up at the time of impact. So the phenomenon is inconsistent, poorly understood, and unmeasurable in real time and circumstance. So it's easier to just disregard that whole physiologic aspect, such as it may be.

Medical research constantly evolves, but the process mostly involves new covering of already well trod ground. You can make a name for yourself in the literature by discovering or inventing something truly new and revolutionary. But it's easier to come up with some reason to discredit established knowledge, procedures, and materials. I've seen this many times in the dental field. Things that have worked quite well for decades suddenly are incorrect. Clinical procedures that have historically lead to disaster are suddenly OK "if you use this new material/technique". "Which is somewhat technique sensitive, so if it fails, that's on you, Doc."

Philosophies come and go. We're left with the old constants. Shoot wisely; hit what you aim at and "use enough gun". What's enough gun? I go with Jim Higginbotham's idea that the bullet, whatever its construction, needs enough steam left to fracture the spine after penetrating the body.

Jeff

jle3030
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rev.
Advanced Member

1018 Posts

Posted - November 16 2019 :  11:09:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Remember the times we've read on these pages: "that if a street proven bullet performs in thus and such manner in 10%gel, then if a newly introduced bullet performs the same way in gel, the street performance of both bullets should be the same."
Both the four fluted solid copper bullets, and the three fluted composite bullets introduced recently meet or exceed the performance of street proven bullets in gel. I can understand the reluctance of the members of this list to quickly adopt these bullets being basically conservative in their choice of bullets and gear. But I for one have loaded the mag of my edc with the four fluted variety.
Respectfully,
rev.
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Evan
Administrator

34603 Posts

Posted - November 16 2019 :  1:44:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, it's still pretty much a crap shoot though I've seen people shot with 12 gauge slugs and not a one of them did anything but die-quickly!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Keith
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - November 16 2019 :  6:05:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A heartfelt a-men to that.
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WR Moore
Advanced Member

USA
1009 Posts

Posted - November 18 2019 :  11:58:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some years back a gent named Mike Courtney was on here, I've seen him occasionally post since. When he was doing his research he developed a theory based on expansion,penetration and velocity loss over time. I couldn't follow the math on his website but the concept seemed logical. However, it still appears to depend upon direct physical interaction between test media and the frontal area of the bullet/permanent wound cavity. Whereas, the magic flute bullet appears to be concentrating on the temporary wound cavity. I do believe we went down this road back in 1974 with the NIJ study.

What the magic flute bullet does in a homogeneous test medium is interesting. However, one wonders what the flutes are doing while traversing the largely hollow areas of the chest cavity. Over the decades, I've used a couple different magic bullets to put various critters down and was distinctly unimpressed. Placement, placement, placement.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9845 Posts

Posted - November 19 2019 :  09:01:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

The way it's supposed to work is the little cuts in the nose will work like a buzz saw as the bullet plows through the wound channel, so more tissue is disrupted and damaged than with a 'regular' hollow point--in addition to all that stretch cavity and hydrostatic shock and neural shock and all that other stuff. At least that's how my 'referenced authority', ie: a customer at the gun shop, told me.

I just smiled as he explained.... Ace



No kidding - does he realize that the bullet only turns one time in the body - at least an 18" thick body (it turns at the rate of the rifling).

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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WR Moore
Advanced Member

USA
1009 Posts

Posted - November 19 2019 :  09:56:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Certainly the folks who write the ad copy don't. I recall the misrepresentation of the evil Black Talon as turning X00,000 rpm and going through the body like a Waring blender. When you point out that even with a 1-10 twist the rotation is about 1.8 revolutions it pretty much punctures the mental image.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1153 Posts

Posted - November 19 2019 :  12:33:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Talking ammo functions in the human body is something like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Previous comments on hitting the vitals with a quality self-defense bullet seems to be the ultimate objective. What is "a quality self-defense" bullet? My answer would be those that ring the bell on depth of penetration and width of expansion, as tested in ballistic gel.
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Evan
Administrator

34603 Posts

Posted - November 19 2019 :  12:46:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth!"
Mike Tyson

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9845 Posts

Posted - November 19 2019 :  6:49:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth!"
Mike Tyson



Indeed, and after that only a select few are able to come up with a functional "plan b"

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
213 Posts

Posted - November 20 2019 :  6:52:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was given 50 rounds of these Magic Bullets. In 45 ACP they feed like Ball in 1911 and the striker guns. They are just too light for my own personal salvation. As somebody once said.....

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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Joshua M. Smith
New Member

81 Posts

Posted - December 07 2019 :  08:55:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The older I get -- 42 now; mid to late 20s when I came here -- the more I realize I want a good hollowpoint that expands to twice its diameter immediately upon contact, with only enough power to shore up prior to exit.

This load is interesting. I saw some loaded by (I think) Sig the other day at the local hardware store, when I was picking up new carry ammo.

I considered it, and then picked up some .45acp RNFP and Winchester White Box, the latter of which I've had good test results with, with less penetration than the current crop of FBI-protocol ammo; about 12" if I recall correctly. The RNFP is for those times I might want a bit more penetration and less expansion; a jacketed near-duplicate of my "woods ammo" using a truncated flat nose.

The bullet the "Honey Badger" uses doesn't inspire any more confidence in me than does the solid .45 bullet with a meplat; that is, I know it'll work, probably not as well as a hollowpoint, but I'll get more penetration.

However the Honey Badger seems to be lighter, and therefore, probably won't penetrate like the flat nose I'm used to. Additionally, it probably won't cause the crushing damage of a hollowpoint.

The flutes on the Honey Badger increase surface area; tissue seems to be disrupted almost by a "vacuum effect" if I'm picturing this correctly.

It might disrupt tissue a bit more than a flat point, I think. Maybe not. Probably not enough to matter.

I've seen enough "magic bullets" over the last 10-20 years to appreciate what Evan and them were saying about them back in the late '90s to early '00s. Much appreciated, guys, especially in retrospect.

Regards,
Josh
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1951 Posts

Posted - December 09 2019 :  4:16:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The only thing that sparks any interest in these projectiles for me is the fact that Jeff Hoffman is interested in them. If he thinks thereís something there, Iím willing to listen.
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