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CXM
Senior Member

USA
673 Posts

Posted - March 21 2019 :  11:40:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone seen any reports on how this ammunition preforms in real life?

I understand it has been recently adopted by the Arkansas State Police for their standard 9mm round which replaces the .45acp used previously.

The fact the ammo is made in Arkansas could be a factor in the ASP choice...

Any information would be appreciated...

Thanks

Chuck

Hoist on High the Bonny Blue Flag That Bears the Single Star!

Evan
Administrator

34434 Posts

Posted - April 14 2019 :  6:52:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I stopped writing the SP books because I had answered my own questions. Apparently, no one else is ready to be attacked and vilified.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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silverback
Junior Member

USA
117 Posts

Posted - April 14 2019 :  7:05:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evan you may have been by some but the info you gathered help many of us come home after shift.THANKS
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5393 Posts

Posted - April 14 2019 :  9:05:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
+ 1

Evan, encountering your work was the beginning of knowledge about this stuff for many of us, including me.

Thanks!



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on April 14 2019 9:08:37 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5543 Posts

Posted - April 14 2019 :  9:20:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I have it on good authority, from an 'expert' on the other site, that bullets don't matter, anything is OK because (he says) the vast majority of any stops are psychological stops. On the occasions I join those conversations, and bring up Evan's findings, you can almost see him crack his elbow bringing the cross up in front of his face. He's one of those guys that 'facts don't matter, I feel (whatever he feels)'. He, and a couple others, also just can't understand how gel testing figures into anything. Kinda fun to poke at him now and then.

Most of the people I hear denigrating Evan's work haven't bothered to read it all. Kinda like reading just the headlines, and thinking you got the whole story. Ace

Oh, and I'm curious about the Golden Saber Black Belts, too--particularly in the .357 load. I like their 'old' 125gr load, it doesn't hurt and blast like the full-bore Federal load, but still seems to have the poop (technical term) to do the job. If the new load is even better, well..... Ace again

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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ASCTLC
Senior Member

732 Posts

Posted - April 15 2019 :  08:02:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Similar to what LB said, my knowledge didn't really get going until I found you and this site.
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Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1037 Posts

Posted - April 15 2019 :  09:19:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evan, your research started/added too a well needed discussion on the subject. Your work was totally worthwhile even though you had critics. Come to think of it, one always have critics if one strive to educate. I, for one, appreciated your work.

Pop Pop
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5393 Posts

Posted - April 15 2019 :  10:24:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Well, I have it on good authority, from an 'expert' on the other site, that bullets don't matter, anything is OK because (he says) the vast majority of any stops are psychological stops. On the occasions I join those conversations, and bring up Evan's findings, you can almost see him crack his elbow bringing the cross up in front of his face. He's one of those guys that 'facts don't matter, I feel (whatever he feels)'. He, and a couple others, also just can't understand how gel testing figures into anything. Kinda fun to poke at him now and then.

Most of the people I hear denigrating Evan's work haven't bothered to read it all. Kinda like reading just the headlines, and thinking you got the whole story. Ace

Oh, and I'm curious about the Golden Saber Black Belts, too--particularly in the .357 load. I like their 'old' 125gr load, it doesn't hurt and blast like the full-bore Federal load, but still seems to have the poop (technical term) to do the job. If the new load is even better, well..... Ace again


And you know what? Even if it were true that many— perhaps even most— stops are psychological— a possibility which our own Jim Higgenbotham has also explored— So what?

Yes, that skews the stats, and makes it more difficult to sift out the information from the ‘noise’.... but that has nothing to do with the task of trying to discern which rounds are effective, and why.

And yeah, some ignorant idiots just enjoy throwing stones at their betters... and one of the costs of taking a public stand, is that they’ll be throwing them at you.

Kudos to Evan for taking their flak, and keeping up the good work, despite it all!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on April 15 2019 10:28:19 AM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3496 Posts

Posted - April 15 2019 :  12:10:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More kudos to Evan. I learned early in my military career that what actually works in the field is much better information for keeping my skinny butt safe than what an academic arm chair expert opines. Evan's book was great information.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on April 15 2019 12:11:36 PM
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1116 Posts

Posted - April 15 2019 :  11:54:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
STOPPING POWER by EM was my introduction to the subject of comparative ballistics results with varied handgun ammo. Thanksaplenty!
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5413 Posts

Posted - April 16 2019 :  09:42:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evan's critics are fond of claiming his stats are undermined by the psychological stop factor.

So: Calculate (guess) what that 'quit' percentage factor might be. Subtract that percentage from Evan's OSS numbers. Arguably what's left could be considered a "true/corrected" OSS figure for the caliber. (Probably not really - we're just playing with numbers here to counterpoint the critics.)

Guess what? The OSS percentage gap between the calibers and loads increases in favor of the more powerful load. The gap between a 90% stopper and a 70% stopper now substantially exceeds the original 20% calculated difference.

This of course is a gross oversimplification. Don't anyone rush off to their calculator to figure what new gun or ammo to buy. Who says the psychological stop percentage of being hit by a .22 equals that of being thumped with a .357 or .45? How many so called 'quits' are also pretty devastating physical wounds? A 'psychological stop' can be anything from a clipped pinky finger to an actual death wound.

And in the end, YOUR gunfight, should it ever occur, will be a statistical sample of one, subject to any number of extraneous variables. But bigger, shot for shot, historically, has generally been better. Evan's OSS figures bear that out. Presuming to correct for 'quits' actually widens the gaps, while only appearing to level the field.

Jeff


jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on April 16 2019 10:08:31 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5393 Posts

Posted - April 16 2019 :  10:48:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All true!

And bottom line— numbers aside— those of us who came into this with ZERO knowledge of what the good loads were, ended up knowing that the rounds in our guns were among the best to be had.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on April 16 2019 10:49:22 AM
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
836 Posts

Posted - April 16 2019 :  11:47:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

+ 1

Evan, encountering your work was the beginning of knowledge about this stuff for many of us, including me.

Thanks!






Me too, LB. After reading his first book I was hooked. It started me doing rudimentary ballistic testing. Then I started reading everything about terminal ballistics that I could get my hands on. Thanks, Evan!
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