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 A semiserious question
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5516 Posts

Posted - February 02 2019 :  10:52:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone done any serious study on retention against a gun grab while carrying AIWB?

Jeff

jle3030

gw
Advanced Member

4738 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  06:12:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Craig Douglas would be a good person to ask

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Charlie Foxtrot
Average Member

257 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  08:33:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure why your question is "semiserious."

Around 1993, Ed Nowicki compiled a book entitled, "Total Survival: A Comprehensive Guide for the Physical, Psychological, Emotional, and Professional Survival of Law Enforcement Officers." Each chapter was written by an author who was knowledgeable in the subject matter discussed. One chapter was written by Phil Messina, who is now retired from the NYPD. Messina's chapter in the book dealt with weapons retention, and he advocated positioning the handgun towards the front. My recollection is that Messina came to the conclusion that positioning the handgun towards the front of the body was optimal for weapons retention, and his methodology was thru trial and error, by having his students attempt weapons retention and gun grabs at his martial arts school, Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics Institute, located in Lindenhurst, New York. I see Messina is active online, so if your question is "serious," you could reach out to him.

Prior to adoption of the semi-auto, it would be common to see many uniformed street cops in NYC positioning their holsters at the front of their thighs, which of course is similar to AIWB.

Edited by - Charlie Foxtrot on February 03 2019 08:35:14 AM
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Charlie Foxtrot
Average Member

257 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  08:41:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW, while I do not disagree with you regarding speaking with Douglas, I have seen some of Douglas' material, and his clinch pick knife was located around 12 o'clock, and his pistol was located around 4 o'clock. I would definitely bring that up in conversation, if I were discussing retention with him.

Edited by - Charlie Foxtrot on February 03 2019 08:42:32 AM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5516 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  09:21:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two reasons for the term 'semiserious'. First I don't carry AIWB for the usually cited comfort and concealment reasons. For me this is a matter 'for academic study only'. Second, the location of the gun lends itself to a certain level of wisecrackery.

We can debate ad nauseum what position on the belt is most concealable; most inviting to a gun grab; or easiest/hardest to defend against a gun grab attempt. I see AIWB as the position where the attack is easiest to see coming; to block and retain; but with the biggest downside if the gun is fired during the struggle. If simple reholstering can be a dangerous issue, what happens when two people are in a death struggle over whether the gun comes out or stays in place?

I was wondering if anyone here has any first hand opinions from FOF training.

Jeff



jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on February 03 2019 09:36:50 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

4738 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  10:49:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dropped Craig Douglas, to my knowledge he's one of the few that providee FOF weapons retention training to civilians

for what it's worth he trains several carry positions including AIWB

I got a few take aways from his ECQC class

there is an optimum time to attempt a draw from concealment, that's not always when you are actually in a clinch. sometimes build seperation first

automatics can be knocked out of battery in a struggle, revolver maybe not

a knife is harder to take away in a struggle than a gun, an attacker can grab a gun and disable it, he might loose fingers if he grabs a sharp blade

finally AIWB keeps the gun in my peripheral vision.

took a class with a civilian that had been shot with his own gun

he was attacked by 2 thugs in a parking lot. one came from the front, bent him over, and pulled his jacket over his head

the second came from behind, grabbed the gun he carried behind his right hip and shot him

he was likely saved when his 9mm automatic malfunctioned

he started training, bought a .44 revolver, and moved it around to AIWB

my thought was, next time his gun won't malfunction and he'll be shot multiple times.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on February 03 2019 10:53:26 AM
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Charlie Foxtrot
Average Member

257 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  11:23:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good post as usual, GW.

Situational awareness is essential. People need to realize that a gun grab is an attempted murder that may be preceded by a violent attack prior to, or concurrent with, grabbing the gun.
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gw
Advanced Member

4738 Posts

Posted - February 03 2019 :  3:15:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Foxtrot

Good post as usual, GW.

Situational awareness is essential. People need to realize that a gun grab is an attempted murder that may be preceded by a violent attack prior to, or concurrent with, grabbing the gun.



along those lines, I've learned I'm too old to get into those kinds of fights

I need to start screaming for help as soon as possible, before I get too winded to do so....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1141 Posts

Posted - February 04 2019 :  07:15:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Appendix Inside Waist Belt: uncomfortable when seated; dangerous to wearer in struggle for gun; not for me!
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - February 04 2019 :  5:07:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know Craig, there are two people I am most afraid to get caught in an extremely "close encounter of the worst kind" with;

One is Jim Bowie, the other is Craig - I may be wrong but I don't think I have to worry about Jim Bowie any more

I'm sure glad Craig is on our side!

Jim H.

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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1943 Posts

Posted - February 06 2019 :  12:09:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Besides Craig Douglas, I think Greg Ellifritz is another respected trainer who has publicly stated that AIWB provides a definite advantage WRT weapon retention. I’m not sure, but I suspect you can include Cecil Burch in there as well.

I’m not sufficiently trained or experienced in this arena, but it seems to me that:

1. If your opponent gets his hand on your AIWB gun and a struggle ensues, you have better leverage and strength to withstand the attack if the gun is carried in front, as opposed to on the crest of the hip or behind. If necessary, you could commit two hands to the problem in front, not so on the side/rear. Additionally, a single hand can apply more power in front than it can reaching around the back of the hip.

2. The motion of reaching back to the hip or behind it makes your arm a more inviting target for your attacker. You’re virtually offering it up as a lever for him to use against you;

3. AIWB is also the only position where you can bend your body to trap or restrict access to the gun.

I know AIWB isn’t for everyone, but it seems there are some definite retention advantages with this carry mode.

Mike
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 09 2019 :  3:29:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The ‘front crossdraw’/11 o’clock position also offers many of the advantages of AIWB: your gun is within your peripheral vision, and still easily accessible when seated. It’s also accessible by your left hand in an emergency. And there’s less danger of hitting something vital if the gun goes off in a weapon retention struggle.

While drawing from AIWB is less conspicuous than drawing from 4 o’clock/behind-the-right-hip, you’re still ‘telegraphing’ with your right elbow when drawing from AIWB. Drawing from front crossdraw/11 o’clock is even less conspicuous than AIWB: your right arm is moving across your body, your elbow isn’t sticking out.

I’ve carried that way for years and like it. A disadvantage it shares with AIWB, is that you need to be wearing your shirttails out to conceal the gun.

One advantage of carrying at 4 o’clock/behind-the-right-hip is you can conceal the gun with a sports jacket or regular jacket when in an environment where shirttails out isn’t appropriate.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 09 2019 3:35:04 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - February 09 2019 :  6:16:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suppose everything has pro's and cons - I would not argue that AWIB is not easier to defend but I think the standard 4:00 position is much harder for the other guy to grab your gun if you are facing him.

OTOH, it is much easier to shoot yourself in the femoral artery while wresting for a gun in an AWIB holster - so make the defense quick and effective before it results in a discharge.

My defense against a gun grab has "evolved" over time, it used to involve a knife in my left pocket and practice at various hands on leverage techniques - now it involves screwing my 2nd .45 in the guys ear with my left hand and pulling the trigger. Other ballistic solutions should work just as well there

If a guy is trying to wrestle your gun away from you, it is not so he can clean it and return it!

Jim H.

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