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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5324 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  09:02:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So now we have twelve dead in a bar shooting in Thousand Oaks California. Approximately 30 shots were reportedly fired. The shooter this time used only a handgun. Lucky for the shooter that he ended up dead. Otherwise he could have done jail time if he used an illegal 'hi capacity' magazine holding more than ten rounds.

Sorry for the sarcasm and lack of sensitivity. It will be interesting to see how the media spins this one since Kalifornia has already passed the laws that should have 'prevented' this tragedy.

Jeff

jle3030

gw
Advanced Member

4469 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  09:31:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
they will pass a new series of laws to address this shooting before the month is out.......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Olddog84
Senior Member

USA
615 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  12:25:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The leftists are already jumping on this, as expected. Word is the shooter is an ex-marine and he used a Glock 21 with extended magazine that is, of course illegal in CA. Prayers to the victims and their families, including the Sheriff's sergeant who ran in and shielded people while taking fatal fire. Of course the gun will be blamed, rather than the shameful lack of mental health facilities and services.

"Somebody Tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." Malcolm Reynolds
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Evan
Administrator

34384 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  1:55:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the dead was a cop who ran towards the sound of gunfire.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  2:15:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A 29-year veteran

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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fiasconva
Junior Member

USA
234 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  3:32:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Saw the news conference this AM and apparently a Glock 21 with extended mag was used according to the police chief doing the conference.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  4:18:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
California needs to ban those extended magazines! Oh, wait... they already did. Never mind

Maybe they should ban Murder? Oh wait... they already did. Never mind

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1680 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  5:07:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
During a conference I saw the Sheriff listed contacts, in the past, with the SO. Including one with a mental evaluation which he passed. It appears that steps taken were what was required by law, and at the time he was not deemed a threat. What triggered him? We may never know. The Sheriff did not blame the gun, magazine stating the shooter acquired it legally.
I am sure the Dem pols will go all out, nationally, to ban anything they can.
The Sheriff did state that their was too much hate in the country and it needed to be reduced. Retfed
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  5:28:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

California needs to ban those extended magazines! Oh, wait... they already did. Never mind

Maybe they should ban Murder? Oh wait... they already did. Never mind


Sorry, Chris: much as I hate to, Iím going to have to turn you in...

What? Didnít you hear?

Last week California decided to cut to the chase, and banned common sense...

And your statement clearly puts you in violation....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 08 2018 6:12:50 PM
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
953 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  5:29:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They will try to take guns away from returning soldiers.

Pop Pop
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1187 Posts

Posted - November 08 2018 :  11:22:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I heard a number of off duty police where there, non carried a gun. Bill D

Bill D
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - November 10 2018 :  11:41:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill D

I heard a number of off duty police where there, non carried a gun. Bill D



You might be surprised how many LEOs, especially the younger ones, don't carry off duty. But, I'm sure they have their I-Phone with them.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
953 Posts

Posted - November 10 2018 :  12:24:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I ask a deputy what ammo he was carrying, a few days ago, and he could not even tell me the caliber he was carrying much less the ammo. All he knew was it was a Glock.

Pop Pop
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5426 Posts

Posted - November 10 2018 :  4:54:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Pop, there are 'cops', then there are 'police officers'--if you understand the difference. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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silverback
Junior Member

USA
113 Posts

Posted - November 10 2018 :  6:59:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My good friend and fellow SRT officer in Detroit area retired about a year ago and has not carried or shot a handgun after retiring.Always jokes if thing go bad he can borrow one of mine.
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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

868 Posts

Posted - November 13 2018 :  10:15:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't understand a law enforcement officer who doesn't carry when off-duty. More than anyone, he or she should fully realize the dangers that are out there everyday.

I have been out of law enforcement for 30 years and have carried on a daily basis ever since.

I don't worry about someone who I might have arrested in the past...I live 300 miles away from where I worked, and that was a long time ago. I just worry about the bad guys who live in my community, and my area is a pretty safe place.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  06:02:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Iím always amazed at people who just assume that nothing bad is going to happen to them...

They must know that such things do happen.... but somehow canít bring themselves to imagine that it might happen to them....

Denial.... Ďitís not just a river in Egyptí....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 14 2018 07:14:10 AM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5426 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  09:51:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Like Evan has said, there are 20-year LEO's with one year's knowledge, and 1-year LEO's with 20 years knowledge (to paraphrase).
My line is 'There are cops, then there are office-ers'. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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gw
Advanced Member

4469 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  10:15:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if there were cops in the bar and having even one drink, they should not have been carrying guns

now the question comes up, should they be drinking off duty, I don't know

but the decision to consume voids the carrying a handgun option

same for civilians

it's probably not legal, shouldn't be legal, and is certainly a liability

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  11:09:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As I see it, a more reasonable standard for anyone drinking while legally armed would be the same as the standard for drinking while driving: as long as you're under the legal blood alcohol limit, you should be OK. I realize that that's not what the law mandates in most places.

Considering that bar shooting, had some or all of those off-duty cops been armed, lives would almost certainly have been saved.

This seems to be one of those situations where the 'doctrine of competing harms' kicks in: Which is worse: to have armed people consuming alcohol, but not legally drunk; or to have 11 defenseless people murdered because cops aren't allowed to carry while drinking?

Obviously, you don't want drunks carrying guns; just like you don't want drunks driving. But IMO the potential harm of having people drinking while carrying is less than the potential harm of prohibiting law-abiding people from carrying a weapon to defend themselves.

Of course, YMMV....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  11:46:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW actually has a good point. Had those off-duty officers had any measurable BAC (and you can bet they'd be tested, especially in a big lib state like CA!) They would have been crucified.... even though they were heros.

Kinda like in the military when you ask "Are you going to give me my medal before, or after, you court martial me? And, could I wear it at my execution?"

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on November 14 2018 11:49:43 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  12:04:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Right, you both make good points. There's no 'good' answer. That's what the doctrine of competing harms is about: in a case where neither outcome is ideal, which is the least-worse among them?

Had one of those off-duty officers been armed, and stopped the shooter early-on; surely that would have been less worse than what happened. Even if he had a measurable BAC. Hopefully enough people would have stepped up and defended him and prevented him from being crucified. But maybe not....

It would definitely be a shame if a hero who saved multiple lives ended up being 'rewarded' by losing his job or getting prosecuted or both.

But arguably, still better than what happened: 11 people dying because law-abiding people who want to go out and have a few beers with their friends aren't allowed to be armed.

The off-duty cops and other CCW carriers in the bar that night obeyed the law: and people died as a result.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 14 2018 1:59:24 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  2:08:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Doctrine of Competing Harms, in my quasi-legal opinion (and I would welcome professional correction) would be very shaky in court, in this circumstance.

It normally requires that 'both' events occur near simultaneously, or that a degree of foreknowledge that their near simultaneous occurrence was likely to happen. The lesser of two evils would then be valid.

If the off-duty cops had foreknowledge that a shooting might occur
(which opens another can o' worms) then drinking and carrying might fall under the Doctrine. Absent that foreknowledge of near simultaneous events, a lawyer would likely shred them... especially since Thousand Oaks, CA, does not have a significant crime problem.

Yeah, I know the situation sucks. But it is what it is.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on November 14 2018 2:10:39 PM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5324 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  2:45:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we can forget any meaningful improvement in the status quo, at least for now.

Democrats smell blood, literally and figuratively, and are going all in for gun control; the more draconian the better.

Most Republican lawmakers will lay low and snivel.

Jeff

jle3030
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1187 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  3:21:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pontification, yes the value of life is starting to be lowered. You might loose your job, any grown ups in the room. Then again, arming teachers too dangerous, might upset the criminals in a gun free zone. I am 82 years young and I am appalled at the sheep running down trodden off the cliff and taking us with them. Bill

Bill D
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5243 Posts

Posted - November 14 2018 :  4:22:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

The Doctrine of Competing Harms, in my quasi-legal opinion (and I would welcome professional correction) would be very shaky in court, in this circumstance.

It normally requires that 'both' events occur near simultaneously, or that a degree of foreknowledge that their near simultaneous occurrence was likely to happen. The lesser of two evils would then be valid.

If the off-duty cops had foreknowledge that a shooting might occur
(which opens another can o' worms) then drinking and carrying might fall under the Doctrine. Absent that foreknowledge of near simultaneous events, a lawyer would likely shred them... especially since Thousand Oaks, CA, does not have a significant crime problem.

Yeah, I know the situation sucks. But it is what it is.


Yeah, I sure wouldnít want to find myself in that position!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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