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 Corbon 115 gr.+P or Magtech 147 gr.+P?
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
59 Posts

Posted - October 04 2018 :  8:20:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Which is better for Glock 19 and SiG p229 9mm - Corbon's 115 gr. JHP +P? or Magtech 147 gr. +P Subsonic bonded JHP? I've heard of some people saying that "heavier" bullet head is better for 9mm? and what does "subsonic" and "bonded" means? I thought before subsonic ammo is only for suppressed firearms?

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5395 Posts

Posted - October 04 2018 :  11:46:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For defense purposes, I'd go with the Corbon. It is much more likely to expand and cause the greater tissue damage and heavier bleeding to effect a quicker incapacitation. Subsonic, and especially the heavier bullets at subsonic velocities are very likely to not expand at all, and just 'poke' a caliber-size hole in tissue, causing less tissue damage and less bleeding, taking longer to effect the incapacitation desired.

'Subsonic' simply means the bullet is traveling slower than the speed of sound, roughly ~1,000fps. A lower speeds, the bullet is less likely to expand, though there may be deeper penetration.
'Bonded' bullets are designed so that the jacket (usually copper) and core (usually lead) tend to hold together better when going through barriers, such as, say, window glass, wooden doors, sheetrock walls, and such. Non-bonded bullets can often 'come apart' when encountering such barriers, with the lead part of the bullet pushing deeper while the jacket stays behind. For example, if you must shoot through a window pane, the jacket may barely penetrate the glass while the lead continues on to the intended target; if that happens, the lead part may veer off one direction or another, or even hit the target but not perform as hoped because of the loss of integrity because of the missing jacket.

Those are some generalities, there may be different results from specially designed loads. Hope that helps some. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
59 Posts

Posted - October 04 2018 :  11:49:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks..how does 147 gr. 9mm subsonic compare to a heavy big bore slug like a .45 which is also travelling below 1,000 fps? nut with a heavy slug? should it be the same or similar in knockdown power?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - October 05 2018 :  09:40:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PJS

Thanks..how does 147 gr. 9mm subsonic compare to a heavy big bore slug like a .45 which is also travelling below 1,000 fps? nut with a heavy slug? should it be the same or similar in knockdown power?



I don't know of a handheld firearm, including shotguns, that have enough power to knock a man down under normal conditions (I did have a .510 Wells Express - 650 gr. bullet at 2100 fps - that would knock me down when I shot it from kneeling, but not from standing).

Knocking down smaller stuff that weighs about 3-4 lbs the .45 has about twice as much momentum as a 115 gr. 9mm and 1.5 times the 147 9mm, but I don't know of anything practical that this matters on.

If I carried a 9mm mine would have Hornady +P 135 Critical Duty or Federal HST 147 in it however...but that is just me.

I've shot a few things with the Winchester +P+ 127 (127 at 1305 from my gun) - I had mixed results, it worked spectacularly once and it failed spectacularly once (not enough to make a judgement)

We all have to work out our own salvation

Jim H.

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on October 05 2018 09:42:02 AM
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
823 Posts

Posted - October 05 2018 :  1:20:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by PJS

Thanks..how does 147 gr. 9mm subsonic compare to a heavy big bore slug like a .45 which is also travelling below 1,000 fps? nut with a heavy slug? should it be the same or similar in knockdown power?



I don't know of a handheld firearm, including shotguns, that have enough power to knock a man down under normal conditions (I did have a .510 Wells Express - 650 gr. bullet at 2100 fps - that would knock me down when I shot it from kneeling, but not from standing).

Knocking down smaller stuff that weighs about 3-4 lbs the .45 has about twice as much momentum as a 115 gr. 9mm and 1.5 times the 147 9mm, but I don't know of anything practical that this matters on.

If I carried a 9mm mine would have Hornady +P 135 Critical Duty or Federal HST 147 in it however...but that is just me.

I've shot a few things with the Winchester +P+ 127 (127 at 1305 from my gun) - I had mixed results, it worked spectacularly once and it failed spectacularly once (not enough to make a judgement)

We all have to work out our own salvation

Jim H.



The Winchester +P+ in 127 doesn't seem to expand reliably. The Federal HST in 147 seems to give a consistent and adequate combination of expansion and penetration. Somewhat difficult to find though.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - October 05 2018 :  1:29:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Federal HST 124+P is no slouch either. I had to shoot a charging pittbull once while sitting on my butt... through skull, neck, lungs, paunch and out through the liver. About 16 inches of penetration, bullet not recovered, but the blood from the liver showed it did expand. Barrel was CZ 85 4.75 inch.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Evan
Administrator

34370 Posts

Posted - October 05 2018 :  2:21:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The answer is that we don't know as much as we think we do and we're all victims of our own experience. A Midwestern dept issued the CB 115gr +p with great results. When they went to the .40 they carried the CB 135 gr load and again were very happy with the results.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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gw
Advanced Member

4446 Posts

Posted - October 05 2018 :  3:12:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to carry a good 9mm 147gr +p load

but I am not inclined to carry Magtech if given a choice

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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ironhead7544
New Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - October 06 2018 :  08:19:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The CorBon 115 gr load or the Federal 9BPLE +P+ load is what I use in the 9mm. The new Super Vel 90 gr would also be good.

I think the 9mm needs all the help it can get. It must have a certain speed to expand.

If you look at the gel tests, and many have been made for the CorBon 115 gr, it expands and makes a nasty permanent cavity. Sometimes, chunks blow off, but the rest of the bullet penetrates. The penetration is limited, but this in not necessarily a bad thing on the street.

Some of the later 147 gr loadings show good expansion in the gel tests. If I had to pick one, the HST would be #1 on my list.

The 147 gr JHP was designed for the suppressed MP5 the military was using. That design gave the best accuracy for head shots at a distance for sentry removal.
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 06 2018 :  12:42:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PJS, I'm curious . . . what is ammunition availability like in the Philippenes? Do you have a wide selection of brands and styles available?
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RLS
Senior Member

USA
730 Posts

Posted - October 06 2018 :  2:32:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I use the 115 gr Corbon DPX in my Kahr CM9 because of the short barrel. If I were inclined to carry a HiPower, I would load the Critical Duty 135 gr on account of the longer barrel.

Rick
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
59 Posts

Posted - October 08 2018 :  03:32:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

PJS, I'm curious . . . what is ammunition availability like in the Philippenes? Do you have a wide selection of brands and styles available?



a long time ago maybe more than 10 years ago we have Corbon ammo here..then now what we have are Remington Golden sabers, federal hydra shok, Hornady XTP and critical defense and Magtech JHP..an we also have Winchester white box JHP..SiG Sauer ammo is kinda new here now...kinda limited compared with what you have there
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1850 Posts

Posted - October 08 2018 :  11:12:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's good information, thanks.

With such a limited selection, I think the Remington Golden Sabers would be a top choice. The CorBon would be good, but it doesn't sound like you can replace it if you train with it. I think I would rather carry the Remington 124+P or the Sig V-Crown (if you can find it), since they are still available.

The Hydra-Shok wasn't very good in 9mm, nor the XTP or the Winchester White Box. I suspect the Magtech is not a high performing round either. From that list, I think you're best served by the Golden Saber or V-Crown.

Mike
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enidpd804
Advanced Member

1760 Posts

Posted - October 09 2018 :  9:39:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PJS,

With those choices, you would likely be best served by the Corbon or Golden Sabre. As Brother Mike stated above, the Hydrashok in 9mm is a bit of an inconsistent performer. I would never trust Magtech for anything more important than practice. The Winchester 127 +P+, like most other Winchester ammunition has suffered from quality control issues in recent years. I'd avoid that, too. Best of luck to you!

Warren
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - October 10 2018 :  3:28:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Golden Sabers seem to do OK unless barriers are concerned.

Had a student fire 23 rounds in fight that developed around his cruiser (one of the small Malibus) - not a single round that hit the car body or glass (both side and windshield) made it through to the bad guy - and a few they were 4 feet apart separated only by the windshield - shooting at each other - bad guy was in the drivers seat but there were no keys so he was stuck).

Fortunately the bad guys pocket pistol did not make it through in a straight line either (that part was caught on film - alas it is not available to the public).

The load was Bonded Core +P 124 G.S.

OTOH, I shot a big buck with 230 G.S. +P .45 and it expanded to right at 1" in diameter and was only stopped by the skin on the off side, he did not even take a step.

but no own can predict what will happen on the next one!

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - October 10 2018 :  3:35:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At the moment, I have to wonder about anything Remington is producing... guns or ammo. They seem to be cutting every corner they can under their new ownership.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - October 14 2018 :  09:30:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

At the moment, I have to wonder about anything Remington is producing... guns or ammo. They seem to be cutting every corner they can under their new ownership.





Indeed, and for the last while. I think I related other places about the Police precision rifle we could not get to shoot.

When the guy who knows a lot finally air gauged the barrel the first 11" of it were .312-.314" in diameter (it was supposed to be .308). The gun was made in 2016 or 2017.

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - October 14 2018 :  10:40:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Winchester, lately, doesn't seem to be a lot better. I've included some White Box 9mm & .40 in recent handgun tests and it lagged well behind the other loads. In rimfire, it's also poor. I shoot 2 or 3 Steel Challenge matches a month. About 40-50% of the shooters are shooting a rimfire rifle or pistol. Winchester .22LR has a very high misfire rate.

The smart shooters have gone to CCI or Aguila in .22LR.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - October 15 2018 :  09:10:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Winchester, lately, doesn't seem to be a lot better. I've included some White Box 9mm & .40 in recent handgun tests and it lagged well behind the other loads. In rimfire, it's also poor. I shoot 2 or 3 Steel Challenge matches a month. About 40-50% of the shooters are shooting a rimfire rifle or pistol. Winchester .22LR has a very high misfire rate.

The smart shooters have gone to CCI or Aguila in .22LR.





Agreed. The last group shoot I was at one of the guys had a new Gen 5 Glock and it had several failures to fire with Win. White Box 9mm - sorta scared him as it was a duty gun but he fired a magazine of Hornady Critical Duty and they all went off.

All the dead rounds fired in another gun but it had a hammer - a CZ I think - but I took the barrel out of his Glock and dropped them into the chamber - they were too short and dropped into the chamber deeper than his duty rounds - it wasn't the gun's fault.

Jim


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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3362 Posts

Posted - October 15 2018 :  2:35:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Winchester, lately, doesn't seem to be a lot better. I've included some White Box 9mm & .40 in recent handgun tests and it lagged well behind the other loads. In rimfire, it's also poor. I shoot 2 or 3 Steel Challenge matches a month. About 40-50% of the shooters are shooting a rimfire rifle or pistol. Winchester .22LR has a very high misfire rate.

The smart shooters have gone to CCI or Aguila in .22LR.





Agreed. The last group shoot I was at one of the guys had a new Gen 5 Glock and it had several failures to fire with Win. White Box 9mm - sorta scared him as it was a duty gun but he fired a magazine of Hornady Critical Duty and they all went off.

All the dead rounds fired in another gun but it had a hammer - a CZ I think - but I took the barrel out of his Glock and dropped them into the chamber - they were too short and dropped into the chamber deeper than his duty rounds - it wasn't the gun's fault.

Jim





Jim, wouldn't the extractor on the Glock have held those rounds in proper position for an effective primer strike? Just asking.
I know some guns have shorter chambers than others, and over length rounds will lock the gun up. But don't most semi-autos actually head space short rounds with the extractor?

Just askin', 'cause I'm not totally sure

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9711 Posts

Posted - October 16 2018 :  5:48:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Winchester, lately, doesn't seem to be a lot better. I've included some White Box 9mm & .40 in recent handgun tests and it lagged well behind the other loads. In rimfire, it's also poor. I shoot 2 or 3 Steel Challenge matches a month. About 40-50% of the shooters are shooting a rimfire rifle or pistol. Winchester .22LR has a very high misfire rate.

The smart shooters have gone to CCI or Aguila in .22LR.





Agreed. The last group shoot I was at one of the guys had a new Gen 5 Glock and it had several failures to fire with Win. White Box 9mm - sorta scared him as it was a duty gun but he fired a magazine of Hornady Critical Duty and they all went off.

All the dead rounds fired in another gun but it had a hammer - a CZ I think - but I took the barrel out of his Glock and dropped them into the chamber - they were too short and dropped into the chamber deeper than his duty rounds - it wasn't the gun's fault.

Jim





Jim, wouldn't the extractor on the Glock have held those rounds in proper position for an effective primer strike? Just asking.
I know some guns have shorter chambers than others, and over length rounds will lock the gun up. But don't most semi-autos actually head space short rounds with the extractor?

Just askin', 'cause I'm not totally sure



It should but the strikes were extremely light (this is a stock gun and fairly new). Strikes on the Hornady ammo looked more normal.

I do think they still head-space on the case mouth but the extractor should not allow all that much forward movement. I don't think.

At the same time I don't know that I've ever had to trim a .45 Auto case as they nearly all are a "smidgen" shorter than the .898" spec. OTOH, most of my firing pins will go about 1" into the chamber if there is no primer to stop it

I must conclude one of two things:

The tolerances in the extractor allow the round to go in just a few thousandths deeper or the striker just did not have enough "oomph".

I now wish we had tried it in some other striker fired gun to see if there was a difference.

But there was no doubt the rounds were very slightly shorter - I now wish I had brought some of the cases from the bad ammo and measured their length.

I forget how far a Glock extractor extends past the breech face but it sure looks adequate to me (at least as far as the hammer nose on a S&W revolver).

Sadly I have more questions than answers.

Jim

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