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RLS
Senior Member

USA
732 Posts

Posted - September 06 2018 :  8:37:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A pre-owned O/U shotgun caught my eye that is in a local shop. It is an ER Amantino/ Stoeger Condor 20ga with 20" barrels. There is a single trigger and the bottom barrel always fires first. It has an inertia system that requires recoil from the bottom barrel firing to reset the trigger to fire the top.

I am not familiar with the inertia system used. That sounds like a potential problem for a self defense shotgun. I don't mind having two shots, I can see where possibly it is just a club if the the first round doesn't fire.

Anyone with experience or knowledge on the inertia system used in this gun?

There are aspects of the shotgun that appeal to me: screw in chokes, a wood stock and short barrels are keys.

Is this one to seriously consider or better to walk away?


Rick

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5446 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  09:51:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No experience with it, but being old--or well-aged--and just a bit skeptical, I think I'd rather trust their SxS with two triggers and the button safety, if considering it for defensive use. Then again, if it works 'flawlessly' in the hunting field for long enough, I'd likely trust it for social work; but it would take me a long time to build that trust. With two triggers, if one breaks you have a single shot, at least for a while.
There's $.02 to spend any way you want. Invest it wisely, maybe it will be worth $.02 someday. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3408 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  12:23:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW... if the gun was being looked at as a home defense tool I would not be comfortable with it. An inexpensive 12 or 20 gauge pump gun would work better.

But, if you want a nifty, light, little 20 ga for quail, woodcock, grouse, etc... and the price is right... it could be cool!

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5446 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  1:05:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the FWIW column, I am fond of the concept of these short double barrels, with full or extra-full chokes, as a handy turkey gun. No doubt it could work for pheasants, too; and OU or SxS would serve equally well.

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
930 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  1:45:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The inertial system has been used for nigh onto a century by Browning and many others for single trigger double barrel shotguns of either SxS or OU variety. That said, the system does need the very occasional cleaning/lubrication to perform as designed. I've never messed with them, don't know how involved that may be, but the stock would have to come off.

My one and only SXS has double triggers. The only way to go.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  3:52:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the inertia system is prone to doubling with heavy loads

recoil sets the next trigger and trips it at the same time

full power slugs and buckshot, like might be used for defense, set off almost simultaneously in a lightweight double gun is real but not real fun.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5328 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  5:01:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is probably just me, but if I try to speed load a double gun I do better with S/S than O/U. The reason being that while both barrels load equally easy with the S/S, I find the bottom barrel of the O/U doesn't allow quite as much clearance from the top edge of the receiver for foolproof (Jeffproof) shell insertion into that lower chamber.

Jeff

jle3030
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RLS
Senior Member

USA
732 Posts

Posted - September 07 2018 :  9:00:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have Mischa, a Baikal SxS, double triggers and 20" barrels. Breaking it open to load/reload requires effort. It doesn't drop open, it has to be pushed or pulled. When I first acquired the shotgun, I did over a thousand opening and closings and it feels the same. The Baikal seems to be a robust piece and I like it well enough, just wish it would drop open easier.

A pump action for self defense has me concerned about operating it if one arm is incapacitated. I favor a semi-auto for a higher capacity shotgun.

My concern with the Condor is the inertia system. I don't want a dud in the bottom barrel to prevent the top barrel to fire. I am not looking for doubling, either.

Shell clearance is something to consider. The Condor has extractors, so the empty hull has to be pulled out, adding another dimension to the issue.

I thank you all for your input. I see why the Condor isn't the proper gun for me.


Rick
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840
Junior Member

USA
173 Posts

Posted - September 08 2018 :  09:24:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I snapped up a super deal on an over-under for my oldest son and that inertia system has worked just fine, but it is a hunting shotgun for him. He has an outside hammer SXS and his wife has a shorter barreled pump, for both hunting and home invasion needs.

I like shorter-length long-guns and rely on my SXS and self-loader for any task I need them for. Reliable, easy to load and handle.

'840'

Yes, I, too, have my semi-autos, but folks need to credit the serious versatility of a good revolver with a serviceable load.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - September 09 2018 :  10:47:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As someone mentioned, the system has bee around for quite a while but I tend to like double triggers in my double guns. I think I do have a nifty O/U 20 gauge with a single trigger - I hardly ever use it.

I took apart a nice little Italian O/U 20 for a friend that was having problems - it was that little inertial weight that caused the problem (I think a pin had worked out and it wasn't swinging). It did work after I fixed it. The gun had less than a box of shells through it when it quit working, which prompted the repair.

But that is just one case. I simply like to be able to select which choke I'm using by pressing the correct trigger rather than moving a selector. Not all first shots are the close ones.

Agree with Chris, I might could live with a double for home defense but I'd prefer a pump.

That said, I'd prefer a double over my H&K(Binelli) M1 - which does not work with buckshot half the time.

Jim H.

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3408 Posts

Posted - September 09 2018 :  11:08:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the truth be known, I do have a shotgun geared towards home defense usage... it's an older Franchi Law 12 with an extended mag. It's been very reliable with buck. But, it's in the safe at the moment. My go to is a light/laser equiped AR-15... 60 grain Hornady Tap in a 30 round mag.

I kinda like the old adage... Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, and hit'em frequently

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - September 09 2018 :  8:02:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmm.... what would be worse? To be hit in the chest with a load of 12 ga. 00 buck, or with a sustained burst of 60-gr TAP..... ?

I hope I never find out....

or ?

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on September 09 2018 8:14:55 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - September 10 2018 :  08:49:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Every one must...well you know. So this is just my perspective and I do not claim everyone should come to the same conclusion.

While I'm all about multiple hits - it can come down to a matter of timing and how far the defender is "behind the curve". One might not have time to get off more than 1 or 2 shots (then again the odds are that he will).

It takes time to fire multiple rounds. How long depends on the shooter and, in fact, the "shootee" as well.

I shot a small deer (turned out to be a button buck) with 60 Gr. Tap - neither of us were impressed with one hit to the shoulder. Multiple hits might have improved the odds though?

There were fortunately three of us that day, one being a wildlife biologist who is really good in the woods. We finally found the critter but there was not a drop of blood anywhere when we backtracked to see if he left any. The only real damage was to the muscle on the shoulder, which did not hamper the critters running in the least. He eventually succumbed to bullet fragments in the lung and artery.

When Tap came out I tested one by lining up two 16 ounce bottles of water (standing up - so maybe 4" of water) with a 2X6 behind it. The bullet never made it to the 2X6 except for some fragments.

A friend (and cop) who works for Hornady told me he personally would only carry the 75 gr. load. He's done a good bit of testing with all of them.

On some facing shots that might be enough (and the bullet did kill the little buck - eventually).

So I'm not "poo-pooing" the idea just pointing out that in some circumstances (say hitting an arm first) you might need to shoot around obstacles as penetration is limited. Though I'm sure the stuff works most of the time anyway (I'm looking for the 1% who are "hard cases").

I know of 00 buck failing as well, but that would be my choice indoors and I'm not really much of a shotgun guy for the field.

It is not like night and day.

OTOH, if one had rather be in a "shooting" rather than a "gunfight" (and I suspect Chris, like myself, would be) then it probably does not matter

For me it comes down to a series of decisions (my rules for me, I do not impose them on others):

1. Never choose a load that is less likely to work (compared to other loads) with only one round - you might not get a second shot.
2. Never choose a load that must expand in order to be effective - it might not.
3. Never choose a load which will not go through 4-6" of soft tissue before it even strikes the chest wall - because it might not make it through to the vitals.
4. Never choose a load that does not perform if you hit bone (and not much else) going in - because if you shoot well that is exactly what you will hit.

Jim H.

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on September 10 2018 08:55:33 AM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5446 Posts

Posted - September 10 2018 :  09:43:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I had to be in a gunfight, I'd rather use the bumper of my truck. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
971 Posts

Posted - September 10 2018 :  09:48:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Case in point on getting multiple shots. The guy who shot the church shooter, in Texas, with an AR 15. Don't know the load he used, nor how many shots did he have time for, nor how effective was the shot(s). I applaud the guy's effort, and know this is only one incident, but multiple shot and hit time, like Jim stated, are sometimes not there. I go with Jim on his 4 rules. Sometimes my thoughts, and fantasies, are just not good solid ponderances.

Eventhough 00 has failed, I go with it in my home, (Long Shot in Odds), my (plan) to use my 357 to get to the shotgun "IF possible" because I can't put my Mossberg in my pocket there, or when I am out on the street. I am using all copper bullets in the handguns, but would not shun older Remington G S. YMMV

Pop Pop
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
930 Posts

Posted - September 10 2018 :  10:06:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
About that 75 gr Hornaday HPBT.....I had an earlier hint that it wasn't a typical target bullet. I had experience-noted here at least once-with 69 gr SMKs, they ah......fragment readily. When I did some testing to verify that spitzer bullets rotate when they impact something more resistant than air, the SMKs fragmented, even at 200 yards and more.

Last year I had time to do some other testing and set up a situation that closely simulated impact with a limb of the body before impact with the torso. The Horaday 75 gr seemed (didn't do enough testing for statistical significance) to retain sufficient integrity and mass to create a serious wound in the torso. As a result, I changed the contents of the magazine in the well, with another available with 55 gr plastic tipped for issues in the pastures.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - September 13 2018 :  08:04:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WR, which reminds me that it says right there in the Sierra manual and bullet ads - the Match King is not a hunting bullet only a target bullet.

Odd that so many police departments issue it for their police rifles in .308. I know of it failing in several incidents. At least two with unobstructed torso hits.

The 69 .22 is worse than the 168 .308 but neither is a good all around bullet for serious social purposes. Especially if you have to shoot through glass!

Jim H.

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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
930 Posts

Posted - September 14 2018 :  5:00:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oddly enough, when I did the spitzer bullet tests with the 155 gr Palma Match SMK, it displayed marvelous integrity, even at 100 yards. Long enough ago that I don't recall what thickness of water I used to simulate tissue, but the panels behind that showed longitudinal bullet rotation showed perfect outlines of an intact Palma Match. I was looking to see what happened with the SMKs and the .30 caliber results startled me.

I wasn't about to try using SMKs on game-at least game larger than groundhogs-but the 69 gr tests were quite surprising. On hits other than on the sternum, they had worked great on the GHs, with good exit wounds. In fact, the exits weren't nearly what's produced by the 60 gr JHPs that became the vermin load.

While going through a shoot house instructor course I overheard a couple of guys commenting on how great a 69 gr SMK worked for a head shot in a hostage situation. I related my experience and could see the reaction was "But it worked"! [Along with a "who the deleted are you? look]I didn't press the issue. I expect in that department it'll be THE LOAD right up until it spectacularly fails.

This is veering way off topic, but I've done testing with the Barnes RRLP (reduced ricochet, limited penetration) bullet. I buy the reduced ricochet, I expect this bullet was designed for steel target training at reduced ranges while providing bullet integrity during the violent M4 feed cycle. Limited penetration certainly wasn't demonstrated. They don't expand as readily as dedicated expanding bullets, in some cases they showed somewhat more penetration than M193 in tissue at close range.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan



Edited by - WR Moore on September 14 2018 5:05:58 PM
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RLS
Senior Member

USA
732 Posts

Posted - September 14 2018 :  6:35:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In regards to the inertia trigger system, does the dry firing of the first barrel have enough energy to set the trigger for the second barrel?


Rick
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5272 Posts

Posted - September 14 2018 :  8:47:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

WR, which reminds me that it says right there in the Sierra manual and bullet ads - the Match King is not a hunting bullet only a target bullet.

Odd that so many police departments issue it for their police rifles in .308. I know of it failing in several incidents. At least two with unobstructed torso hits.

The 69 .22 is worse than the 168 .308 but neither is a good all around bullet for serious social purposes. Especially if you have to shoot through glass!

Jim H.


Jim,

Iíd be interested in knowing what in your opinion would be some good .308 loads for serious social purposes?

Thanks,
LB

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2346 Posts

Posted - September 15 2018 :  07:58:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RLS

In regards to the inertia trigger system, does the dry firing of the first barrel have enough energy to set the trigger for the second barrel?


Rick



Not in most cases, you will need to bump the butt plate on something hard to reset the triggers.
Russ


The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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RLS
Senior Member

USA
732 Posts

Posted - September 15 2018 :  1:03:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you, Russ.



Rick
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gw
Advanced Member

4483 Posts

Posted - September 15 2018 :  4:10:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i'd get some snap caps before i dropped a hammer on empty chambers too

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - September 16 2018 :  08:04:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

WR, which reminds me that it says right there in the Sierra manual and bullet ads - the Match King is not a hunting bullet only a target bullet.

Odd that so many police departments issue it for their police rifles in .308. I know of it failing in several incidents. At least two with unobstructed torso hits.

The 69 .22 is worse than the 168 .308 but neither is a good all around bullet for serious social purposes. Especially if you have to shoot through glass!

Jim H.


Jim,

Iíd be interested in knowing what in your opinion would be some good .308 loads for serious social purposes?

Thanks,
LB




With the caveat that I live out in the hinterlands and do not have much concern about "over-penetration" My favorite load - alas no longer available but I have 3 cases put away - is the Hiertenberger bonded 150 gr JSP - it gets 2850 in my 22" M1a and 2950 from my 26" model 70.

That said, any old 150 JSP will do, I've shot a good bit of Federal but have not gotten into the new Fusion line, that is said to be fine.

For glass etc. it would be hard to beat a load using the Barnes TSX or a similar bullet (I think Hornady also loads their own version..GMX?)

for urban areas I think I'd like the 130 gr SOST (I forget the .mil number but something like Mk319?)

Not a recommendation but if one is a hand-loader and chooses to go that route the locals have killed more than a hundred deer with a 165 Hornady BTSP - it works great but I don't know how it will work on glass.

Also, M80 Ball is no slouch!

Jim

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Deputy25
Senior Member

USA
962 Posts

Posted - September 16 2018 :  3:45:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are issued Hornady 168 TAP. Thatís what we have to use. It worked ok on car bodies and windshields, but the only thing we compared it to was 5.56 TAP.

Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9737 Posts

Posted - September 17 2018 :  11:38:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Deputy25

We are issued Hornady 168 TAP. Thatís what we have to use. It worked ok on car bodies and windshields, but the only thing we compared it to was 5.56 TAP.



I haven't fooled with the .308 TAP (.45 230gr TAP is pretty neat). I think they also make a .308 110 gr TAP - I have not tested that either.

I notice from their website that they now have three different 168 gr. .308 TAP loads and two 165 gr. loads.

Two of the 168s are the same bullet but not the same man #, not sure what is up with that?

None are hollow points (which I think is a good thing).

I did note after typing the above that Hornady sells the regular .308 165 gr BTSP - with an interlock bullet - I've seen that used on game a LOT - good bullet (though I would not choose that type for much bigger game than 250 lbs).

Jim

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