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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2261 Posts

Posted - June 07 2018 :  8:08:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I went out to a local gun club Monday evening to shoot some action stuff. you know some paper some steel. I shot my g19 first then after I got warmed up I switched to the 1911, biggest thing I different I found was it seemed to always be empty I kept doing a failure drill then looking down and seeing the slide back and an empty magazine in it
Other then that I shot it well, maybe better then the G19. Was fun and the club is only 20 miles or so from home, I will go back.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper

Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5344 Posts

Posted - June 09 2018 :  06:34:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Russ, I have a pair of 1911 pistols, both are "Milspec" with only changing grips, and making sure they feed hollowpoints. I can see a day where ammo may be very hard to scrounge and ball ammo is about all you can find for "Practice" or "Plinking".

I figure .45 ball is my hands down choice in handgun caliber if it comes to that. A small pile of mags and a larger pile of ammo put back does not hurt anything.
Glad you had a good time with that 1911!

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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ajt
Average Member

USA
267 Posts

Posted - June 09 2018 :  09:22:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've come to enjoy my 1911's and Sig P225 more and more because of the eight round capacity. I find that as I age my arms get tired alot faster when shooting anything with 13 - 18 rounds, and that I need to lower my arms for a break when shooting the slow-fire mandated by the range. I find my arms and hands shaking after a couple of 15 round strings and my elbows 'droop', bringing the firearm in closer and I have to make the concious effort to push both arms straight out or my Isoceles turns into a modified weaver mid-way through! (Maybe my body is telling me something there!) Lately I have been loading my mags with just five rounds and concentrating on breathing and trigger control - sometimes its just natural and sometimes I have to work at it.
Glad to hear that you are enjoying your 1911
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5294 Posts

Posted - June 09 2018 :  12:56:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Generally, for practice, fewer rounds with more concentration will help instill better habits than lotsa rounds banged off as quick as you can pull the trigger. We get granddads at the store who will buy several boxes of .22 at a time, because the grandkids can 'empty a lot of magazines real fast'. I'm fine with selling more stuff, but usually suggest they just don't load the magazines to the top. Maybe if the grandkids have to reload after five or six shots, they'll pay more attention to the details. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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ajt
Average Member

USA
267 Posts

Posted - June 10 2018 :  4:27:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe that explains why my first firearm, a bolt action .22 rifle 55 years ago, came with only a five round magazine.
And yes, on the rare occasions that I get to take the grandkids to the range, we usually take along a carton of .22s. In fact, my wife looks askance at me every time I pick up another carton of .22s and tell her that its for the next time the grandkids come to visit (from across the country)! Their father has been working on breathing and trigger control with them. I realize that I am not a good 'teacher' but their father is excellent with them. Maybe we should consider taking the old Savage 4c instead of the Ruger 10-22 for them to use (yes, with 25 round sticks). All of their practice is done with iron sights.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5294 Posts

Posted - June 10 2018 :  5:02:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
'But Honey, it for the children!' Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3223 Posts

Posted - June 10 2018 :  5:08:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ajt

Maybe that explains why my first firearm, a bolt action .22 rifle 55 years ago, came with only a five round magazine.
And yes, on the rare occasions that I get to take the grandkids to the range, we usually take along a carton of .22s. In fact, my wife looks askance at me every time I pick up another carton of .22s and tell her that its for the next time the grandkids come to visit (from across the country)! Their father has been working on breathing and trigger control with them. I realize that I am not a good 'teacher' but their father is excellent with them. Maybe we should consider taking the old Savage 4c instead of the Ruger 10-22 for them to use (yes, with 25 round sticks). All of their practice is done with iron sights.



Get a bolt action single shot .22... then make a contest of it... with some kinda small prize... that'll teach them well....

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9619 Posts

Posted - June 12 2018 :  07:55:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I ran a live fire shoot house for more than a decade with a lot of SWAT an Military guys.

Like the guys at the NTI found, we never saw anyone run dry with a single stack pistol but I've sure seen guys with hi-cap pistols and a LOT of guys with M4s or sub guns run dry.

It seems the serious guys with single stacks know the "Syke's Rule" (Eric A. Sykes of the Shanghai Municipal Police): "Never go through a door without all your weapons full".

The guys with high caps think they have enough ammo to do so they don't think about it.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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gw
Advanced Member

4279 Posts

Posted - June 12 2018 :  10:03:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
that comes from training with full magazines

poor training

try using randomly loaded partial magazines, folks learn to keep weapons topped off

maybe........

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9619 Posts

Posted - June 13 2018 :  08:06:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

that comes from training with full magazines

poor training

try using randomly loaded partial magazines, folks learn to keep weapons topped off

maybe........



Yep, I certainly don't count rounds - but I can tell if I've fired my gun - I reload when I can not when I have to

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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gw
Advanced Member

4279 Posts

Posted - June 13 2018 :  10:15:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Sgt. Timothy Garmin's fight is instructive.

I'm not likely to be doing much room clearing, but I might need to fight my way out of my car in a road rage/carjacking event.

Garmin reloaded his G21 as fast as he could empty it ( 3 magazines or 33 rounds).

he didn't admit to counting rounds but he did realize he was running out of ammo and needed to slow down and get hits ( even though he had hit vitals multiple times by then).

interestingly he never mentions his backup G26

of the many take aways he brought out of that, he went to a high capacity 9mm and carrys 145 rounds on body.

I like the 1911, but Garmin showed that a .45 ain't the end all and reloading is a must have skill.

keeping the weapon topped off is easier if you have extra ammo on board, Sgt Garmin took to carrying 2 33 round magazines on his vest

try to figure how to carry 145 rounds on your person to keep a 1911 loaded.......


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1676 Posts

Posted - June 14 2018 :  08:00:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Extra ammunition is very comforting. One of my old Partners took to carrying two 20 round S&W Magazines in addition to the two 15 rounders after a protracted gunfight between a Sgt. and another n plain clothes on my JOB with three armed Robbers. Both ran dry. One carried a Model 39 with one spare and the other a Model 19 2/1/2 if memory serves me. The were calling for additional ammo as we turned out. I always have reloads.

MSS
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1164 Posts

Posted - June 15 2018 :  1:59:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Being a non LEO civie I subscribe to the .45 makes a bigger hole then the 9mm at close range and I have to be on the defense etc. Sure don't want to get in a gunfight. Enjoying reading your experiences though. Bill D

Bill D
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9619 Posts

Posted - June 17 2018 :  10:41:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

I think Sgt. Timothy Garmin's fight is instructive.

I'm not likely to be doing much room clearing, but I might need to fight my way out of my car in a road rage/carjacking event.

Garmin reloaded his G21 as fast as he could empty it ( 3 magazines or 33 rounds).

he didn't admit to counting rounds but he did realize he was running out of ammo and needed to slow down and get hits ( even though he had hit vitals multiple times by then).

interestingly he never mentions his backup G26

of the many take aways he brought out of that, he went to a high capacity 9mm and carrys 145 rounds on body.

I like the 1911, but Garmin showed that a .45 ain't the end all and reloading is a must have skill.

keeping the weapon topped off is easier if you have extra ammo on board, Sgt Garmin took to carrying 2 33 round magazines on his vest

try to figure how to carry 145 rounds on your person to keep a 1911 loaded.......





OTOH he only achieved 4 Center-mass hits (as represented by the FBI QIT zone) - 3 in the abdomen and one in a lung - that isn't likely to work with anything on a determined subject (I know of more than one 12 gauge slug failure with similar hits). there was a 5th around the belt line and I might be persuaded to accept it at a "QIT" hit but the author of the article, who sent me the autopsy pics, called it 4 total.

There were several in the torso - which sort of illustrates how poor a hit can be and still be a torso hit - the QIT zone is huge! Heck an IDPA -0 and an IPSC "A-zone" are sort of large and contain organs that one would not expect to bring about physical incapacitation for half a minute or more.

Then again most "stops" are psychological anyway - failures to stop indicate that the subject was not predisposed to quit when shot at, or even hit.

Jim


Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3223 Posts

Posted - June 17 2018 :  10:56:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting point RE: targets. A shooter may be able to hit all the 'good' zones on IPSC/IDPA/FBI targets on the range. Whether they are exceptionally effective bullet placement in real life is debatable.

Try this with some students sometime -- clothes pin an old tee-shirt over a IDPA/IPSC target. Since everybody in the world seems to send me ball caps I have plenty and I put one on the head box (sideways, naturally) and "There's your attacker!"

You'd be amazed how many shooters who can consistently hit the 'good scoring zones' now revert to plain old COM and shoot abdomen/ low lung shots.

I think Congress needs to pass a new law -- every criminal must (by law) wear a shirt representing one of the the aforementioned targets, with scoring rings clearly marked, or face criminal charges

That should fix things

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

4279 Posts

Posted - June 17 2018 :  11:24:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by gw

I think Sgt. Timothy Garmin's fight is instructive.

I'm not likely to be doing much room clearing, but I might need to fight my way out of my car in a road rage/carjacking event.

Garmin reloaded his G21 as fast as he could empty it ( 3 magazines or 33 rounds).

he didn't admit to counting rounds but he did realize he was running out of ammo and needed to slow down and get hits ( even though he had hit vitals multiple times by then).

interestingly he never mentions his backup G26

of the many take aways he brought out of that, he went to a high capacity 9mm and carrys 145 rounds on body.

I like the 1911, but Garmin showed that a .45 ain't the end all and reloading is a must have skill.

keeping the weapon topped off is easier if you have extra ammo on board, Sgt Garmin took to carrying 2 33 round magazines on his vest

try to figure how to carry 145 rounds on your person to keep a 1911 loaded.......





OTOH he only achieved 4 Center-mass hits (as represented by the FBI QIT zone) - 3 in the abdomen and one in a lung - that isn't likely to work with anything on a determined subject (I know of more than one 12 gauge slug failure with similar hits). there was a 5th around the belt line and I might be persuaded to accept it at a "QIT" hit but the author of the article, who sent me the autopsy pics, called it 4 total.

There were several in the torso - which sort of illustrates how poor a hit can be and still be a torso hit - the QIT zone is huge! Heck an IDPA -0 and an IPSC "A-zone" are sort of large and contain organs that one would not expect to bring about physical incapacitation for half a minute or more.

Then again most "stops" are psychological anyway - failures to stop indicate that the subject was not predisposed to quit when shot at, or even hit.

Jim





I'm not an expert but I got different information

"Autopsy showed Maddox had been hit by 17 of Gramins’ 230-gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints. Some had hit extremities, including upper limbs as the officer’s bullets tracked up the gunman’s arms while he was firing at the cop. But Maddox had also been hit in one kidney, both lungs … and the heart. All three of Gramins’ last carefully braced, precisely aimed shots had indeed hit the head."

at least the first magazine Garmin dumped was through his own windshield, likely made accuracy problematic.

the ER doctor complaned that Garmin had shot Maddox to pieces.

one round also disabled Maddox's second handgun,his arms and weapon obviously orientated towards Garmin.

the entire event last a grand total of 56 seconds

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5294 Posts

Posted - June 17 2018 :  2:14:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No doubt the longest minute in Garmin's life.

I like the t-shirt and ball caps idea. One thing I like to do is put a strip of duct tape up the middle of the chest to about the bottom of the neck, and tell them 'Only hits on the tape count.' An index card in the middle of the chest works, too. Surprising how often somebody who can dump 10 or 15 rounds in a couple or three seconds suddenly shoot like a bullseye competitor. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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