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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - May 25 2018 :  1:21:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From NRA online: some are obvious, some not so much.

Here are the headers, see the full article for the details:

1. Increase the diameter of the grip.

2. Increase the friction between your hand and the gun.

3. Try a smaller caliber, if you can.

4. Try a "cooler" load, if you can.

5. Reload.

6. Change your recoil springs.

7. Port your barrel.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 25 2018 1:22:17 PM

Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1554 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  12:19:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have never been recoil sensitive, but minimal Arthritis has moved in, and I am beginning to get some soreness the next day after 50 to 100 rounds. No pain when firing is noticed however shooting nothing bigger than 357 DPX. The 9 MM is less noticeable out of my M P 2.0.

Pop Pop
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  12:46:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pop Pop

I have never been recoil sensitive, but minimal Arthritis has moved in, and I am beginning to get some soreness the next day after 50 to 100 rounds. No pain when firing is noticed however shooting nothing bigger than 357 DPX. The 9 MM is less noticeable out of my M P 2.0.



Good point. The 7 Steps might be valid for those who engage in competitive shooting.... but I doubt if they mean much for those whose significant interest is self-defense. Smaller caliber, porting, cooler loads, changing recoil springs (assuming those installed are operating properly) don't interest me in that area.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  2:10:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agreed.

Using a less potent round will obviously be easier on your hand; but unfortunately, also easier on the Ďintended recipientí; which kinda defeats the whole purpose. Besides, anyone could figure that out: less gun = less recoil = less pain to the shooter.

OTOH, I found 1 & 2 to be interesting, as they would work without diminishing the effectiveness of your chosen round.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 26 2018 2:11:36 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  2:44:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Agreed.

Using a less potent round will obviously be easier on your hand; but unfortunately, also easier on the Ďintended recipientí; which kinda defeats the whole purpose. Besides, anyone could figure that out: less gun = less recoil = less pain to the shooter.

OTOH, I found 1 & 2 to be interesting, as they would work without diminishing the effectiveness of your chosen round.





I think 1 & 2 are valid. I do have significant arthritis. Skateboard tape is cheap, easy to apply, and works. Front strap for sure. Back strap if it's metal.

I do use it on my competition pistols where I might be firing 150-200 rounds per match and 12,000-15,000 practice rounds a year. It helps. I also do the "cooler load" thing there.

I don't do either with my carry guns, however. With all that practice, I figure if I can't get it done with the 32 rounds I'm carrying, plus the back up snubby ... I probably don't deserve to live. Let Darwin Rule!

Besides, skateboard tape tends to fray my tee-shirts that ride over my gun. That is unacceptable to me because when I am out in public I prefer to display the picture of a well-dressed, and upstanding member of my community.

In my neck O' the woods that requires a clean tee-shirt, and reasonably clean ballcap, Levis, and tenny sneaks

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 26 2018 2:51:57 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  3:06:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like even with your arthritis, youíre able to shoot without it becoming bad enough to impair you. Recoil isnít an issue for me either.... yet....

My dad who I take care of just turned 96. Observing him gives me some idea of what Iíll be like, should I live that long. At some point, hand strength also becomes an issue.

So I donít rule it out that the day will come when ĎArthurí comes to visit me, and refuses to leave; and I too am looking to diminish the effects of recoil as much as possible.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 26 2018 3:12:12 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
6070 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  6:52:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gave my 5 1/2" Redhawk .44Mag to the little nephew a couple years ago because it had stopped being fun with full-house loads. Wish I'd done more research on hunting loads in .44Spl, it would have been easier to shoot and the critters probably wouldn't know the difference; but he's happy with it, and with two different .45 Colt revawvers, I ain't really suffering.
Before I gave him the gun, just a couple of cylinders of heavy loads would make my hand ache for a couple of days. I think it's just old age, Arthur isn't an issue yet--but I can tell he's coming. In the FWIW column, I came up with a Pachmayr Presentation grip for the S&W .45, fills the hand more than the Gripper style I had on it. Expecting it to be more controllable and a little softer feeling on recoil. Makes it hob to carry concealed, but that's not its purpose anyway. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Frogfoot
Senior Member

USA
931 Posts

Posted - May 29 2018 :  01:47:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe a 1911 style pistol in .22 TCM might work? Light recoil, fast shot recovery times, high capacity and relatively cheap ammunition prices on the plus side, but only one load on the minus side. With the 9R version of this round, you can get a conversion kit for your Glock 17 or 22. It's too bad there's not a smaller, more affordable pistol in 5.7x28 though.

We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give. - Sir Winston Churchill
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5807 Posts

Posted - May 29 2018 :  08:26:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm surprised that elastic support gloves weren't mentioned. I've found the fingerless or open finger tip gloves help a lot; mainly as needed for all round wear, but especially when the hands are working hard, e.g. shooting. It takes some experimentation to find the right gloves for the job. I've ended up with four levels. You can find the first two at any well stocked pharmacy.

Futuro tan fingerless wrist/hand support. Works well with virtually no compomise in manual dexterity. (No padding). They're the most comfortable, but not very durable and theyre bad for showing dirt and stain. They look pretty nasty after a shooting session, but gun manipulation is virtually unimpeded.

Futuro black thunb support. Better support for the thumbs, where I have most of my problems. No help for the other finger joints. Priced about like their lightweight tan gloves, IIRC. Heavier weight, more support, durable, and doesn't show the dirt. "OK" for gun manipulation. YMMV on that.

Work, mechanic's, bike, etc. gloves. Better support. Various degrees of padding and texture help grip, reduce recoil, but reduce dexterity. Support is welcome for reloading stiff magazines, but handling individual rounds is harder. My pair ("Grease Monkeys") was $9.95 at Home Depot. Some break in required.

Uncle Mike's shooting gloves. Great support. Lots of padding = too much of a good thing, IMHO, unless shooting something like Scandium .357 snubs. Dexterity and grip on the gun both suffer. I find it very difficult to shoot one handed with these.

Elbow problems? Never had any until I was taught to shoot "locked out isosceles" style. I shot better, but the elbows soon started hurting. Athletic support sleeves help a lot. That and not quite locking the elbows when shooting heavy calibers or a lot of rounds. Way better now. I think elbow positioning is a neglected subject and not well understood by many shooters.

Wrist? No problems there so far, but there is no shortage of support items for that complex joint. Arthritis support gloves tend to have wrist wrap support as well

Hope this helps. I think most of us have some sort of problems as age sets in.

Jeff

jle3030
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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - May 29 2018 :  09:41:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
shooting gloves, a great idea, recoil shield for the shoulder guns too

you wouldn't train without hearing protection, protective gear is protective gear.

based on the concept of what you do today you pay for tomorrow, consider limiting the number of rounds per session

a few rounds spread over more frequent sessions seems to let the joints recover more quickly

if you think on it, when you pound hands and elbows in a long heavy training session, you have weakened yourself for a few days, hopefully nothing happens during that long recovery period.

a good .22lr trainer will pay for itself in ammo cost and reduce permanent joint damage.

the operating phrase is permanent joint damage.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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ironhead7544
New Member

USA
57 Posts

Posted - May 29 2018 :  10:13:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have found that the Pachmayr Diamond grips work well to reduce recoil of revolvers.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 29 2018 :  11:00:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a thought on practice/training... IMHO (based upon 46 years of competitive shooting,coaching and instructing)..... Brief training sessions (50 rounds or so) are more productive than 150+ round sessions. They key is to work on specific drills where you focus on specific skill sets....some examples would be:...
Double taps from carry holster 3 to 10 yards (two hands and strong hand)...3 round Failure Drill... precision head shots 10-15 yards... weak hand shooting from low ready.... and other practical self-defense drills.

The problem with pounding a lot of rounds down range is that recoil fatigue will set in... you get sloppy... develop bad habits... and may not gain much after that.

Focused drills... around 50 rounds... are IMHO a better bet. I know that when folks have to drive an hour of more to a range that they want to shoot their guns. But is all that shooting really beneficial in working on skills that will be used quickly, and relatively briefly.. with the attendant adrenalin rush?

Another free thought...so it's worth what you paid for it.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 29 2018 11:03:16 AM
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WR Moore
Advanced Member

USA
1072 Posts

Posted - May 30 2018 :  1:25:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I apparently don't suffer from arthritis-yet, but I have vivid memories of a hyper extended elbow over 30 years ago. I didn't notice any difference in recoil between 9 mm and .45 until then. Frankly, there was no way I could use the .45 at all at that time, or for quite some time thereafter. OTOH, I could shoot 9 mm all day.

I discovered the benefits of horizontally flexed elbows quite some time ago. Our HD armor at that time pretty much made isosceles impossible for many of us, but we pretty much only used it once a year for a qualification on the stress course. I was wondering how to cope the first time I ran the course with the new armor, but didn't worry about it. As I finished my last few shots I looked at my arm position and realized how I'd done it. Does reduce the effects of recoil and the trembles.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - May 30 2018 :  1:36:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i fell, tried to catch myself, and injured my right wrist

I was carrying a 1911 with ball ammo, the pain during firing after that was unbearable.

but I could use a Glock g17 and +p ammo no problem

eventually determined the wrist was broken, I had to shoot left handed for a while

until then I had never noticed the .45 recoil either

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9868 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  08:23:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've done a little bit of experimentation with recoil - using both myself and quite a few friends.

I also have arthritis - but in my case, so far, it is not aggressive.

Sometimes when it acts up (usually during cold and wet weather) I run down to the range and test pistols since at that time I'm really sensitive.

Both our tests (which used slow motion film of a laser dot on a tall target) and my subjective "arthritic" test showed us that caliber, within a range, did not matter as much as pistol design.

A Glock 17 had about 50% more muzzle rise than a 1911 .45 and in our multiple shot test was slightly harder to control.

Now how much recoil is felt, I have no way of gauging other than just ask folks how it felt.

On the list, I'd certainly agree with #6 - I can feel the difference when I put in a heavier mainspring (I would not be using a buffer in a self defense gun - though none was mentioned).

I would also not go smaller caliber, or use a cooler load in a defense gun - but that may be just me.

That said, I'd take a .38 148 Wadcutter at 850 fps over many of the .357 125 JHPs for defense - I'm all about smashing the spine and many of the .357s don't have enough "steam" after going trough 8-12" of flesh and bone to smash the spine. I think the Cor-bon or Barnes DPX/VorTx might though. Rem. Golden Saber might as well.

For just general SD use, the various 125 /357s will get the job done, it is only the rare determined individual I am worried about - else I'd just carry my S&W #1 .22 Short, made in 1860 - after all it is only in around 10% of SD encounters you actually have to fire the gun and in another 3-5% where you do a miss will suffice - that is if you pay attention to some statistical studies, I don't (no offense to anyone that does hold them in high regard - my Dad was a professional statistician, he thought in most cases they were misused)

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9868 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  08:25:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Frogfoot

Maybe a 1911 style pistol in .22 TCM might work? Light recoil, fast shot recovery times, high capacity and relatively cheap ammunition prices on the plus side, but only one load on the minus side. With the 9R version of this round, you can get a conversion kit for your Glock 17 or 22. It's too bad there's not a smaller, more affordable pistol in 5.7x28 though.



I have one of those - it is indeed very light recoil. I'm not sure I'd trust the 40 gr. bullet for self defense though.

Jim

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9868 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  08:26:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Just a thought on practice/training... IMHO (based upon 46 years of competitive shooting,coaching and instructing)..... Brief training sessions (50 rounds or so) are more productive than 150+ round sessions. They key is to work on specific drills where you focus on specific skill sets....some examples would be:...
Double taps from carry holster 3 to 10 yards (two hands and strong hand)...3 round Failure Drill... precision head shots 10-15 yards... weak hand shooting from low ready.... and other practical self-defense drills.

The problem with pounding a lot of rounds down range is that recoil fatigue will set in... you get sloppy... develop bad habits... and may not gain much after that.

Focused drills... around 50 rounds... are IMHO a better bet. I know that when folks have to drive an hour of more to a range that they want to shoot their guns. But is all that shooting really beneficial in working on skills that will be used quickly, and relatively briefly.. with the attendant adrenalin rush?

Another free thought...so it's worth what you paid for it.



Amen. Been saying this for years! It was a hard won lesson though.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  10:51:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've done a little bit of experimentation with recoil - using both myself and quite a few friends.

I also have arthritis - but in my case, so far, it is not aggressive.

Sometimes when it acts up (usually during cold and wet weather) I run down to the range and test pistols since at that time I'm really sensitive.

Both our tests (which used slow motion film of a laser dot on a tall target) and my subjective "arthritic" test showed us that caliber, within a range, did not matter as much as pistol design.

A Glock 17 had about 50% more muzzle rise than a 1911 .45 and in our multiple shot test was slightly harder to control.

Now how much recoil is felt, I have no way of gauging other than just ask folks how it felt.

On the list, I'd certainly agree with #6 - I can feel the difference when I put in a heavier mainspring (I would not be using a buffer in a self defense gun - though none was mentioned).

I would also not go smaller caliber, or use a cooler load in a defense gun - but that may be just me.

That said, I'd take a .38 148 Wadcutter at 850 fps over many of the .357 125 JHPs for defense - I'm all about smashing the spine and many of the .357s don't have enough "steam" after going trough 8-12" of flesh and bone to smash the spine. I think the Cor-bon or Barnes DPX/VorTx might though. Rem. Golden Saber might as well.

For just general SD use, the various 125 /357s will get the job done, it is only the rare determined individual I am worried about - else I'd just carry my S&W #1 .22 Short, made in 1860 - after all it is only in around 10% of SD encounters you actually have to fire the gun and in another 3-5% where you do a miss will suffice - that is if you pay attention to some statistical studies, I don't (no offense to anyone that does hold them in high regard - my Dad was a professional statistician, he thought in most cases they were misused)

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.



kind of an apple to oranges comparison, G17 to 1911

you want to see a clearer difference, try a 9mm 1911 against a .45 1911

all things equal, the 9mm recoils less

I don't run over power recoil springs in my 1911s

I use stock springs with a square bottom firing pin stop, the way JB set it up.

the 1911a1 changed to a radiused firing pin stop to ease thumb cocking, but it takes the mainspring out of the recoil cycle

a square bottom stop changes dwell time, adds the mainspring back into the cyle.

it also loads the hammer strut, but doesn't batter the frame like heavy recoil springs, so a trade I suppose.

maybe you don't step down from a .45 for carry, but pickup the 9mm version for training, load the big gun for all other.

might save your joints for a few more years.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  11:13:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to respectfully disagree with "apples & oranges". The gun design does play a role in the level of recoil. Some just 'kick' more than others, even with smaller calibers... grip angle, weight, bore axis, etc.

It's not something to lightly dismiss. The gun model itself can be a factor for those who can no longer tolerate higher levels of recoil

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 31 2018 11:15:09 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  11:31:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I have to respectfully disagree with "apples & oranges". The gun design does play a role in the level of recoil. Some just 'kick' more than others, even with smaller calibers... grip angle, weight, bore axis, etc.

It's not something to lightly dismiss. The gun model itself can be a factor for those who can no longer tolerate higher levels of recoil



true enough, but a loaded 1911a1 is about 10oz heavier than a loaded g17

I tried the same comparison and found I was a bit faster with the g17, and I like 1911s

I've seen video of Jim shooting, he's got the 1911 down pat, others maybe not so much

try a lightweight 1911 against a g17, the g17 is a little tamer.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  11:53:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have no interest in either of those guns. As Jim is fond of saying (and correctly so,IMHO) "We each have to find out own salvation".

Mine happens to be S&W M&Ps in semi-autos. Although I do have a Gen 1 G29 that sticks around for 'special purposes'.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  12:59:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the subject, coping with arthritis, is very interesting to me

I have lost some use of my left hand already, my right is hanging in there, trying to preserve what I got

can some guns be shot faster than others, probably

do some recoil more and cause joint damage, sure

is that joint damage permanent, yes


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3870 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  4:13:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

the subject, coping with arthritis, is very interesting to me

I have lost some use of my left hand already, my right is hanging in there, trying to preserve what I got

can some guns be shot faster than others, probably

do some recoil more and cause joint damage, sure

is that joint damage permanent, yes






Seems like you might need to be 'seeking your own salvation', when it comes to handguns. I suspect that... if you seek... you will find it

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9868 Posts

Posted - June 01 2018 :  09:10:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw


kind of an apple to oranges comparison, G17 to 1911

you want to see a clearer difference, try a 9mm 1911 against a .45 1911

all things equal, the 9mm recoils less

I don't run over power recoil springs in my 1911s

I use stock springs with a square bottom firing pin stop, the way JB set it up.

the 1911a1 changed to a radiused firing pin stop to ease thumb cocking, but it takes the mainspring out of the recoil cycle

a square bottom stop changes dwell time, adds the mainspring back into the cyle.

it also loads the hammer strut, but doesn't batter the frame like heavy recoil springs, so a trade I suppose.

maybe you don't step down from a .45 for carry, but pickup the 9mm version for training, load the big gun for all other.

might save your joints for a few more years.....




GW - that was the point I was trying to make (and failed) - it is an apples and oranges thing - so sometimes one can just change platforms rather than caliber.

Tom G. and I once had a lady student who read gun magazines who came to a week long class with her husband - she insisted on shooting an AMT Backup .380 because she had read .380s had less recoil.

We begged and pleaded with her to use another gun. Finally on the last day I persuaded her to shoot one of her husbands spare Colt Combat Commanders - she shot it, one hole group in the A-zone but the target was only about 21 feet.

She said : "I thought .45s were supposed to kick hard?".

Yes, I find a 9mm 1911 to be very mild. Oddly enough I cannot find much difference between a Glock 17 and a Glock 21 in recoil though. I do sense a little but it is not as great as with the caliber change in a 1911. OTOH, a Browning HP is considerably harder to control than a 1911 .45 (on any reasonable controllability test - but it might have a lot to do with trigger reset).

The relationship seems to change when you change platforms - I think it might have more to do with slide velocity (and the relationship between the weight of the slide and frame) than it does caliber... again within a range. .22s are always easier to control and .44 Magnum harder.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9868 Posts

Posted - June 01 2018 :  09:15:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I have to respectfully disagree with "apples & oranges". The gun design does play a role in the level of recoil. Some just 'kick' more than others, even with smaller calibers... grip angle, weight, bore axis, etc.

It's not something to lightly dismiss. The gun model itself can be a factor for those who can no longer tolerate higher levels of recoil



true enough, but a loaded 1911a1 is about 10oz heavier than a loaded g17

I tried the same comparison and found I was a bit faster with the g17, and I like 1911s

I've seen video of Jim shooting, he's got the 1911 down pat, others maybe not so much

try a lightweight 1911 against a g17, the g17 is a little tamer.....



That last is a good point, we failed to try a LW Commander in our tests and I'd agree it does have both more muzzle rise and "flip" - I find my LW Commander is really close to my G-17 though I cannot shoot the G-17 as fast (that might be an indication of how much time I spend on each platform though).

BTW - all the little .380s we tried went off the paper in recoil.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4794 Posts

Posted - June 01 2018 :  4:20:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With standard pressure ammo, I find "controllabilty " between the g17 and lightweight Commander to be very close myself.

my wife shoots her g19 with +p+, she won't touch a 1911

I think the muzzle flip bothers her, that and she's a big sissy.......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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