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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 16 2018 :  08:50:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
S&W has brought back the model 19 .357, a 3 inch version is in the works

with an offset ejector rod, no flat spot on the forcing cone, it should be the strongest model 19 they've made.

I still wonder if it holds up to 125gr magnum ammo any better.

interesting

but I wish they'd find it in their heart to leave off the lock and hole in the side


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

silverback
Junior Member

USA
107 Posts

Posted - May 16 2018 :  7:54:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thats great news have wanted a 3 inch 19 to match my 3 inch 13.
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Sigger
New Member

USA
93 Posts

Posted - May 16 2018 :  9:32:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was reading their site and, if I remember correctly, the 3inch is only available in the Performance Center model. It is nice looking.
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5262 Posts

Posted - May 17 2018 :  08:45:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sigger

I was reading their site and, if I remember correctly, the 3inch is only available in the Performance Center model. It is nice looking.

The 3 inch custom shop version is ported, or so I've read. YMMV on whether or not that's a good thing on a carry gun. The muzzle blast from my 3.5 inch Model 27, shooting full-bore loads, has been known to drive neighboring shooters off the line. Once, on an indoor range, a couple left the room entirely until I switched to a quieter gun. I'm not sure I'd want to shoot a short barrel ported .357 indoors or from retention.

That said, I do miss the 2.5 inch M19 I gave to my granddaughter, so this new version does tempt me. And anyway I shot 95% .38's and .357 Lite Golden Sabers in that gun.

Jeff

jle3030
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5347 Posts

Posted - May 17 2018 :  11:03:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Personally, not fond of the ported-barrel concept for a carry gun; too much chance of singeing the mustache and eyebrows from a retention position--not to mention what misses the hair could go into the eyeball. Maybe on a hunting gun?
But I do like the thought of a 3" K-frame, though I'll likely never get one (I would say 'need one', but I try not to use the 'n' word that way). Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3300 Posts

Posted - May 17 2018 :  12:36:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Personally, not fond of the ported-barrel concept for a carry gun; too much chance of singeing the mustache and eyebrows from a retention position--not to mention what misses the hair could go into the eyeball. Maybe on a hunting gun?
But I do like the thought of a 3" K-frame, though I'll likely never get one (I would say 'need one', but I try not to use the 'n' word that way). Ace



+1 on ported EDCs. IMHO, a very bad idea

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 18 2018 :  07:50:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ditto on the porting.

It may just be my "old foggy" tastes but I hate the way the lock changed the lines of the receiver on the J, K and L frames. In fact I do not like the lock anyway and would yank it out - but, better still, I just ain't buying one.

Hamilton Bowen recently quit taking new Smiths in and claims the barrels are in so tight that even S&W does not replace them (I'm not sure that is true but I do know of some corrections dept. guns the barrels broke off of because they were screwed in too tight and broke right at the receiver).

No new S&W revolvers for me, but to each their own. I had a gunsmith from S&W tell me he does not and would not own a new S&W revolver with the lock.

I did buy a Mountain gun in .45 Colt with a lock since I thought I might not be able to find one otherwise. I took the guts of the lock out and left the little "keyway" freewheeling.

By some miracle I found an earlier .45 Colt Mtn. Gun and traded the one with the lock to a friend (who didn't want the guts replaced).

I guess I might buy an earlier Model 21 or 22 and do the same thing to it since there are no modern versions without the lock - but I'd rather just find and old 3rd Model Hand Ejector in .44 or .45.

Jim H.

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on May 18 2018 07:53:50 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 18 2018 :  08:19:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
from what I know of the correction dept guns, they were indeed over tightened.

S&W had dropped the pinned barrel, the new process over torqued the barrel and cracked the forcing cone.

a NASA engineer claimed NASA had the same issue with solvents and micro cracking causing errosion of stainless steel

at any rate these new guns use 2 piece barrels, eliminating the problem, not traditional, but actually a better method of installing a barrel that improves accuracy and durability

the frames of these new k-frames have been lengthened to allow radiusing of the corners much the way they strengthened the j-frames

the ejector rod is offset, with the lock moved to the crane

all in all a very strong k-frame magnum

I agree with the changes to the lines of the frame

but the real problem is the lock, you can pull the guts out, but is that politically correct, might cause legal trouble down the road

I guess the crappy storage lock design is S&Ws way of helping sell Rugers........

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on May 18 2018 08:22:10 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 20 2018 :  08:33:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

from what I know of the correction dept guns, they were indeed over tightened.

S&W had dropped the pinned barrel, the new process over torqued the barrel and cracked the forcing cone.

a NASA engineer claimed NASA had the same issue with solvents and micro cracking causing errosion of stainless steel

at any rate these new guns use 2 piece barrels, eliminating the problem, not traditional, but actually a better method of installing a barrel that improves accuracy and durability

the frames of these new k-frames have been lengthened to allow radiusing of the corners much the way they strengthened the j-frames

the ejector rod is offset, with the lock moved to the crane

all in all a very strong k-frame magnum

I agree with the changes to the lines of the frame

but the real problem is the lock, you can pull the guts out, but is that politically correct, might cause legal trouble down the road

I guess the crappy storage lock design is S&Ws way of helping sell Rugers........




GW - I'd agree, it might cause problems in a self defense gun, in court.

I also know of about a dozen cases in which the lock got engaged inadvertently - oddly enough, not a single person had a key on them when this happened. I'm not sure whether it comes on when firing or vibration - but two guys in one armored car found theirs on and they had not fired the guns (not sure if these guns were issue guns or not - perhaps they had drawn the guns from issue and the lock was on and they did not check them until later?).

I'd admit, the new barrel and the way S&W has been rifling in the last 20 years may well be more accurate - but I guess I like to tinker with guns too much and don't care for they way they install the two piece myself - again, I'm probably just a throw-back

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 20 2018 :  08:43:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
storage locks seem to be just another way for Murphy to get involved, "whatever can happen will happen"

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
916 Posts

Posted - May 20 2018 :  10:33:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
About pinned/un pinned barrels: the method of barrel installation DID NOT CHANGE. The barrel was turned into the frame a specific amount (give or take a tad) to produce tension between threads and barrel shoulder. Just like torquing a bolt.

What they may be doing recently, I can't say. There have always been those cases where the barrel didn't hand tighten to the proper position and got installed anyway resulting in excessive torque. In fact, I've got a hand made N frame wrench I had to make to take care of just such an issue ~30 years ago-with a pinned barrel.

I've seen pictures of the new 19 (which, naturally, I can't find now), the barrel is obviously thicker at the forcing cone. They obviously changed a lot more than radii on the frame. Split the difference between K & L? Made an L frame and labeled in a 19? New ball detent on the frame to lock the yoke.
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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 20 2018 :  10:57:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the ball detent allows the ejector rod to be off set, clearance provided by that does away with the flat spot on the forcing cone

exactly like the new model 66

fixed ejector rod prevents the rod from unscrewing and locking up the gun also

it's a new k-frame in the same way the new slightly longer j-frame is a j-frame

I don't believe S&W ever explained the correction dept guns, at least not to me, but it seemed possible that with the ones we examined the barrels may have been damaged during installation.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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ironhead7544
Starting Member

USA
47 Posts

Posted - May 20 2018 :  11:24:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stuff happens. Lemons get out of the factory. Had a few of them. Looked like QC test guns that accidentally got sent out.
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1837 Posts

Posted - May 22 2018 :  01:47:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Meh.

The 19 is my favorite revolver design, but the lock, the awful triggers, the 2 piece barrels, and the spotty QC I've seen lately from S&W all leave me feeling cold towards this new version.

Especially the lock. S&W, are you paying attention?

I'll grant you that the correction to the forcing cone flat is a genuine improvement, but I'd still rather buy an old, pre-lock gun, or a brand new Ruger.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 22 2018 :  08:17:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

Meh.

The 19 is my favorite revolver design, but the lock, the awful triggers, the 2 piece barrels, and the spotty QC I've seen lately from S&W all leave me feeling cold towards this new version.

Especially the lock. S&W, are you paying attention?

I'll grant you that the correction to the forcing cone flat is a genuine improvement, but I'd still rather buy an old, pre-lock gun, or a brand new Ruger.



That is exactly what I do (it doesn't mean other folks are wrong).

But then, I became disillusioned with full house .357 Magnum ammo (my first love in handguns) 50 years ago and prefer .38s anyway (sometimes a little warm by the book standards but definitely not 30,000 PSI)

I also do loads in .357 cases but they would hardly come up to the high pressure that damages K-frames.

I agree on the Rugers - I've looked over the new Colt and the Kimber and they look interesting but I'm now past the point of spending $700 plus just to find out if something is as good as my safe full of old Smiths and Colts, which serve me fine.

Jim

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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1837 Posts

Posted - May 22 2018 :  11:09:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We're on the same wavelength, Jim. I'm solidly in the .38 Special camp and the older K's suit me fine. I enjoy shooting some .357 now and then, but those usually get burned up in my L-Frames.

I have a K6s T&E gun that's in the state pen right now, but when I parole it in a few weeks I'll wring it out. I've been impressed with that gun so far, in the limited trigger time I have on it.

I desperately wish S&W would expand their catalog of non-lock SKUs, but they're tone deaf these days. They don't understand how much business they're losing to the lock.

There was a time when S&W owned the revolver market. Colt was out, Ruger had a limited catalog, and Taurus wasn't a threat.

That's all changed now.

Ruger has been very creative lately and they're making the guns that their customers are asking for, with the features they want. Their quality has surpassed S&W from what I can see.

New arrivals like Kimber will make another dent, and steal the customers looking for a premium product. Colt is not quite steady on their feet yet, but they're at least back in the ring and the Night Cobra gives me some hope that they're going to find their way again.

S&W no longer has the market cornered. If they want to keep their share, they would be wise to make some no-lock guns. They can keep some lock-equipped guns in the catalog for the places and people that require them, but they need to offer more no-lock variants if they want to lure their customers--and their wallets--back.

As the Progressives ramp up their war on gun owners and the gun culture, the lock stings even more than it used to. It's a symbol of one of their greatest victories, from one of our darkest times. I'm even more offended by it now than I ever was, and I refuse to fly the enemy's flag on my gun.

To think they would desecrate a classic piece of Americana like the Model 19 with the HUD Hole is beyond the pale.

Tone deaf!
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5262 Posts

Posted - May 23 2018 :  08:29:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

Jeff

jle3030
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 23 2018 :  08:46:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

Jeff



Then there's that! About a month or so ago I ran across a pristine (maybe even had the box) 4" Model 12-2 for $450 - I'd much rather have that than any gun with a lock.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 23 2018 :  08:49:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

Jeff



I've noticed, in my area anyway, prices on used S&Ws dropping to a more reasonable level.

maybe it's the Trump affect, the run on guns has cooled down...

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 24 2018 :  08:00:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

Jeff



I've noticed, in my area anyway, prices on used S&Ws dropping to a more reasonable level.

maybe it's the Trump affect, the run on guns has cooled down...




Boy that is encouraging - I sure hope it is a trend!

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4385 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  08:57:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore

About pinned/un pinned barrels: the method of barrel installation DID NOT CHANGE. The barrel was turned into the frame a specific amount (give or take a tad) to produce tension between threads and barrel shoulder. Just like torquing a bolt.

What they may be doing recently, I can't say. There have always been those cases where the barrel didn't hand tighten to the proper position and got installed anyway resulting in excessive torque. In fact, I've got a hand made N frame wrench I had to make to take care of just such an issue ~30 years ago-with a pinned barrel.

I've seen pictures of the new 19 (which, naturally, I can't find now), the barrel is obviously thicker at the forcing cone. They obviously changed a lot more than radii on the frame. Split the difference between K & L? Made an L frame and labeled in a 19? New ball detent on the frame to lock the yoke.



barrels of S&W m64s fail:

"Old problem rearing its ugly head again, not really a new problem. A troublesome sporadic one when people forget about good shop practices and get sloppy.

Stress corrosion cracking is generally caused by contamination by solvents or cutting fluids too high in chlorides. Over-torquing barrels barrels creates a stress rise at the root of the thread which makes the problem worse. Microscopic examination of the failed barrels would be obvious to a competent engineer, especially familiar to those with aerospace or nuclear power systems experience.

Ruger had a short run of this back in the 1980s when they first starting making stainless magnums. I saw a few dozen guns come back when I worked there. All were traced to one guy on night shift who was over-torquing barrels on Redhawks which didn't quite line up, instead of taking a pass off the front of the frame on a Blanchard grinder as he should have done. He also used a wrong, slippery high sulphur thread lubricant intended for chrome-moly instead of the anti-seize compound used with SS.

This condition is aggravated by tight fit of barrel threads, such as when using a class 3A, combined with high stress, high temperature, and high barrel torque. Ruger fixed their problem by changing to a looser 2A fit on the barrel threads and assembling barrels to the frames using a Loctite product to cement them solidly while reducing stress on the threads and positively preventing any seepage of cleaning solvents into the barrel threads after they left the factory."

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2286 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  1:10:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

My thought upon seeing the thread title was "Why would anybody buy a new M19 when you could buy an old one with better build quality for less $?"
Back in the Pliocene I worked at a S&W warranty shop, and I saw the issues mentioned above start happening.
The new guns may be marvels of manufacturing technology, and supposedly better than the "old" ones, but I would much rather have an old one.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3300 Posts

Posted - May 26 2018 :  3:05:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by revjen45

Browsing Gunbroker I notice nice pinned and recessed K frames for way less than MSRP on the new S&W guns.

My thought upon seeing the thread title was "Why would anybody buy a new M19 when you could buy an old one with better build quality for less $?"
Back in the Pliocene I worked at a S&W warranty shop, and I saw the issues mentioned above start happening.
The new guns may be marvels of manufacturing technology, and supposedly better than the "old" ones, but I would much rather have an old one.



Ditto. I carried a M19 in 72-77. Had to sell 'em off do to financial stuff. In 2005 I got back into competitive shooting with revolvers.
I had a new 2005 S&W. In 2006 I changed to Ruger GP-100s.

I participate in a couple of forums dealing with serious competitive shooters. What they are saying about S&W "quality control" with revolvers is worth reading. They're buying new SW guns, and then spending a few hundred gunsmith bucks to get them to work properly.

The revolver assembly line seems lacking. On the other hand the M&P line is just fine. I also just had a Victory Target Model .22 in for T&E. I had tested the original gun in 2015. That one worked well. This one was "a bit rough around the edges".

I guess it just depends upon who the Line Supervisor is, at the moment.

When it comes to revolvers, I'll stick with Ruger... same for .22 pistols.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 26 2018 3:06:55 PM
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Pat Taylor
New Member

USA
54 Posts

Posted - May 27 2018 :  2:35:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stopped is a few places yesterday to look around. 19-5 blue 2.5 inch in one shop marked $799 and I have no idea what they are actually worth these days.

Another place had a 3 inch j fame , mod 60 maybe?

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5101 Posts

Posted - May 28 2018 :  3:49:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lots of pinned-and-recessed M19s currently on Gunbroker...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9681 Posts

Posted - May 31 2018 :  07:56:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pat Taylor

Stopped is a few places yesterday to look around. 19-5 blue 2.5 inch in one shop marked $799 and I have no idea what they are actually worth these days.

Another place had a 3 inch j fame , mod 60 maybe?





I certainly would not give $700 for a 2.5" 19 - I bought one at Whittakers during "S&W Days" a few years ago (maybe 3 or 4) for $250 and the S&W gunsmith did a trigger job on it for free.

They did start going up after that but I bet you can find one for $500 in our area.

As an aside, I actually went there that day to pick up a 6" Model 53 (.22 Jet) I had bought over the phone - I did happily pay $500 for that!

Depending on the exact model - the 3" J-frame might be worth something - one of the 3" stainless guns they only made 600 of - a friend has one but I forget the exact model (he gave $500 for it and he pretty much knows what guns are worth - the guy that sold it did not apparently).

Then again, there were only 650 Target Model of 1989 .45 Colts (plenty of the 1989 625 in .45 Auto) - and I paid around $400 for mine, new, at the Cave City Gun show.

Jim

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