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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2278 Posts

Posted - April 14 2018 :  3:24:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After shooting and handling the 1911 platform for awhile now I am still having trouble with the grip safety. My grip on the gun is not consistent enough I guess, still working on it and also the weak hand thumb placement.
I have to wonder why these guns are not made with a solid back frame and just do away with the grip safety?
I am much more comfortable with the glock then the 1911.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper

Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1673 Posts

Posted - April 14 2018 :  3:40:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, Russ did you check the leaf spring under the grip safety? I had to replace several on Springfields with Wolf springs. It's an easy fix, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2278 Posts

Posted - April 14 2018 :  5:59:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Mike

Hi, Russ did you check the leaf spring under the grip safety? I had to replace several on Springfields with Wolf springs. It's an easy fix, regards, Mike




Yup, I even tuned the grip safety itself so it would disengage sooner.
Kind of think I am getting to old to change systems.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5317 Posts

Posted - April 14 2018 :  6:44:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does it have the 'bump' on it, to help with a less-than-perfect grip?
There was a time people would pin the grip safety and just rely on the thumb lever. Not sure I'd recommend it, and don't know how that would look to the legal beagles if it was ever used in a social situation, but if it's a range-only gun, might be an option. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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djwarner
Average Member

USA
250 Posts

Posted - April 15 2018 :  08:46:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recently ran across a WWII 1911 training film on Youtube. There were several things that did not conform with our modern teachings. Most interesting was two handed shooting. They had the second hand held palm up, placing the butt of the gun in the center of the palm and wrapping the fingers and thumb to grab the primary hand. This allows you fully extend your primary arm with elbow and wrist straight while using the sights.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5317 Posts

Posted - April 15 2018 :  09:29:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup, and in my experience, makes recoil much less controllable. We used to call it 'tea cup grip'---well, still do, on the rare occasion it occurs. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 20 2018 :  08:41:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5029 Posts

Posted - April 20 2018 :  08:51:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 23 2018 :  12:43:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?





On the fatality there were half a dozen witnesses - it was at a public shooting range. The gun was in a horizontal shoulder holster and the shooter (actually a well trained individual - no idea why he thought a horizontal shoulder holster was OK since I know many of the folks he trained under and they don't allow them in their classes).

Witnesses say he just simply took off the shoulder rig as one might a jacket or vest - and the gun went off in the holster (he was handling only the harness) - this case is still in litigation I think so it is unclear if something inside the holster fired the gun (people who know the incident think it was something in there - like a foreign object).

Another was a worn leather holster which went off when the wearer twisted his body in a seat - it was an injury but not a serous one - the holster had sort of folded (thin leather) and was resting on the face of the trigger.

Two others were flimsy nylon holsters and the gun went off when bending or twisting.

The couple of others I'll have to try to find again and see what sort of holster was involved.

Jim H.

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Charlie Foxtrot
Junior Member

231 Posts

Posted - April 23 2018 :  1:22:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim, for clarification, what type(s) of firing mechanisms involved?
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ironhead7544
Starting Member

USA
39 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  06:41:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With the 1911, it is possible that the safety can be worn to the point that it does not work. It's operation and the disconnector should be checked regularly.

I will not carry a cocked and locked 1911 without a thumb break that blocks the hammer.

Concerning the grip safety, the one with the bump should solve the problem.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5029 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  08:08:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?





On the fatality there were half a dozen witnesses - it was at a public shooting range. The gun was in a horizontal shoulder holster and the shooter (actually a well trained individual - no idea why he thought a horizontal shoulder holster was OK since I know many of the folks he trained under and they don't allow them in their classes).

Witnesses say he just simply took off the shoulder rig as one might a jacket or vest - and the gun went off in the holster (he was handling only the harness) - this case is still in litigation I think so it is unclear if something inside the holster fired the gun (people who know the incident think it was something in there - like a foreign object).

Another was a worn leather holster which went off when the wearer twisted his body in a seat - it was an injury but not a serous one - the holster had sort of folded (thin leather) and was resting on the face of the trigger.

Two others were flimsy nylon holsters and the gun went off when bending or twisting.

The couple of others I'll have to try to find again and see what sort of holster was involved.

Jim H.


So.... the thought is that in each of these instances, the thumb safety somehow got inadvertantly disengaged, and the trigger got somehow pressed backwards; either by some foreign object, or by the body of the holster itself? Or is it likely possible that in some of these cases, the person forgot or neglected to engage the thumb safety before holstering?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on April 25 2018 08:55:16 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

4323 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  09:37:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?





On the fatality there were half a dozen witnesses - it was at a public shooting range. The gun was in a horizontal shoulder holster and the shooter (actually a well trained individual - no idea why he thought a horizontal shoulder holster was OK since I know many of the folks he trained under and they don't allow them in their classes).

Witnesses say he just simply took off the shoulder rig as one might a jacket or vest - and the gun went off in the holster (he was handling only the harness) - this case is still in litigation I think so it is unclear if something inside the holster fired the gun (people who know the incident think it was something in there - like a foreign object).

Another was a worn leather holster which went off when the wearer twisted his body in a seat - it was an injury but not a serous one - the holster had sort of folded (thin leather) and was resting on the face of the trigger.

Two others were flimsy nylon holsters and the gun went off when bending or twisting.

The couple of others I'll have to try to find again and see what sort of holster was involved.

Jim H.


So.... the thought is that in each of these instances, the thumb safety somehow got inadvertantly disengaged, and the trigger got somehow pressed backwards; either by some foreign object, or by the body of the holster itself? Or is it likely possible that in some of these cases, the person forgot or neglected to engage the thumb safety before holstering?





if I was guessing, i'd bet most of these were guns that had been "customized"

I had a national match thats trigger had been rigged to break less than 2lbs, I know because I did it.

trigger shoes, pinned grip safetys, and thumb safetys fitted incorrectly make for a dangerous guns.......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2278 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  11:43:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW
I also do not like trigger shoes and would hope the thumb safety is working correctly. BUT, the Hi Power that was at least partly JMBs design does not half a grip safety on it and it is not considered a dangerous gun.
I am not trying to start a fight, just make a comment.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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gw
Advanced Member

4323 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  2:22:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
there's a quick function check to verify your safeties, probably on the internet, you don't have to hope

Browning's original design on the 1911 had a grip safety no thumb safety (model 1909)

passive device versus active

the thumb safety requires a trained user apply it, the grip safety doesn't

later versions of the HighPower incorporated a firing pin safety, a passive device like the grip safety

pinning grip safetys used to be common, I don't know of any serious users today advocate the practice

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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gw
Advanced Member

4323 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  2:41:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like the 9mm Glock a bit better too....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2278 Posts

Posted - April 25 2018 :  3:26:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

I like the 9mm Glock a bit better too....





My kinda guy
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  09:28:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Foxtrot

Jim, for clarification, what type(s) of firing mechanisms involved?



5 were Glocks, one was a modified S&W M&P auto.

Mind you the problem is really not the guns but the holsters.

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  09:30:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?





On the fatality there were half a dozen witnesses - it was at a public shooting range. The gun was in a horizontal shoulder holster and the shooter (actually a well trained individual - no idea why he thought a horizontal shoulder holster was OK since I know many of the folks he trained under and they don't allow them in their classes).

Witnesses say he just simply took off the shoulder rig as one might a jacket or vest - and the gun went off in the holster (he was handling only the harness) - this case is still in litigation I think so it is unclear if something inside the holster fired the gun (people who know the incident think it was something in there - like a foreign object).

Another was a worn leather holster which went off when the wearer twisted his body in a seat - it was an injury but not a serous one - the holster had sort of folded (thin leather) and was resting on the face of the trigger.

Two others were flimsy nylon holsters and the gun went off when bending or twisting.

The couple of others I'll have to try to find again and see what sort of holster was involved.

Jim H.


So.... the thought is that in each of these instances, the thumb safety somehow got inadvertantly disengaged, and the trigger got somehow pressed backwards; either by some foreign object, or by the body of the holster itself? Or is it likely possible that in some of these cases, the person forgot or neglected to engage the thumb safety before holstering?





There was no thumb safety on any of these guns - but they all had a short trigger throw of less than 8 lbs. One was likely incredibly light.

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  09:31:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw




if I was guessing, i'd bet most of these were guns that had been "customized"

I had a national match thats trigger had been rigged to break less than 2lbs, I know because I did it.

trigger shoes, pinned grip safetys, and thumb safetys fitted incorrectly make for a dangerous guns.......
[/quote]

Only one of the 6 were non stock - the other 5 were stock factory guns used by non competitors.

Jim

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Charlie Foxtrot
Junior Member

231 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  10:13:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jim. I am more comfortable carrying TDA pistols.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5029 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  12:07:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Foxtrot

Jim, for clarification, what type(s) of firing mechanisms involved?



5 were Glocks, one was a modified S&W M&P auto.

Mind you the problem is really not the guns but the holsters.

Jim



quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I've never had a problem myself but have run into folks who do.

If one does not have a departmental regulation one can just tape it down - or do the classy Texas Ranger thing and use a small leather strip to tie it down. Rubber bands work as well but have to be changed occasionally.

I actually like it myself and make sure all of mine function and would never carry a pistol with a short trigger under 8 or 9 lbs without some sort of safety other than on the trigger itself (I did that for a while but it scared the begessezes out of me - especially since I see cases come across the desk regularly about people shooting themselves when holstering).

It isn't mostly fingers on the trigger it is shirt tails and coat tassels. I even know of 6 going off when already holstered and no hand on the gun - one fatal.

Jim


Do you have any idea what caused them to happen?





On the fatality there were half a dozen witnesses - it was at a public shooting range. The gun was in a horizontal shoulder holster and the shooter (actually a well trained individual - no idea why he thought a horizontal shoulder holster was OK since I know many of the folks he trained under and they don't allow them in their classes).

Witnesses say he just simply took off the shoulder rig as one might a jacket or vest - and the gun went off in the holster (he was handling only the harness) - this case is still in litigation I think so it is unclear if something inside the holster fired the gun (people who know the incident think it was something in there - like a foreign object).

Another was a worn leather holster which went off when the wearer twisted his body in a seat - it was an injury but not a serous one - the holster had sort of folded (thin leather) and was resting on the face of the trigger.

Two others were flimsy nylon holsters and the gun went off when bending or twisting.

The couple of others I'll have to try to find again and see what sort of holster was involved.

Jim H.


So.... the thought is that in each of these instances, the thumb safety somehow got inadvertantly disengaged, and the trigger got somehow pressed backwards; either by some foreign object, or by the body of the holster itself? Or is it likely possible that in some of these cases, the person forgot or neglected to engage the thumb safety before holstering?





There was no thumb safety on any of these guns - but they all had a short trigger throw of less than 8 lbs. One was likely incredibly light.

Jim


OK, thanks.

For some reason I was thinking they were all 1911s you were talking about....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on April 26 2018 5:32:08 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3252 Posts

Posted - April 26 2018 :  1:27:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How did a gun, encased in a holster, fire & eject multiple rounds? One would think that after one or two... with the ejection port stuck in a holster... that there would have been a jam.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9636 Posts

Posted - April 28 2018 :  2:49:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

How did a gun, encased in a holster, fire & eject multiple rounds? One would think that after one or two... with the ejection port stuck in a holster... that there would have been a jam.



I don't know of any that have went off multiple times that I recall - all six incidents in the holster I was talking about were one shot each.

I have heard of a few NDs that involved more than one round but they were all out of the holster.

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3252 Posts

Posted - April 28 2018 :  4:33:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK... now I understand. Yep... bad holstering technique will fire the gun. Trigger shoes, ultra-lite triggers, and 'stuff' in the holster... or a loose shirt getting in the way will do it too.

As far as grip safeties... on any gun... I want nothing to do with them. IMHO they are a useless add on that does nothing more than create the possibility of a serious problem.

YMMV

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Vanman
Junior Member

USA
193 Posts

Posted - April 28 2018 :  6:39:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMHO, a grip safety makes much more sense than a safety on the trigger.
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