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 Shooting
 The 1911
 Military choice
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1117 Posts

Posted - March 11 2017 :  2:37:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder about the new Sig320 deal. What I wonder about is why they didn't test a lightweight 1911 Combat Commander in 9mm. From what I've gleaned on the net is the bidding contract was written for a modular pistol which doesn't cover all available guns. I get the impression that the Army has watched to many Star Wars movies and if the gun isn't plastic and painted different colors and has custom grips and a flashlight holder it isn't any good. Bill

Bill D

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2558 Posts

Posted - March 11 2017 :  4:33:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMHO, polymer-framed guns are the future of personal defense handguns. Less weight to carry, holds more rounds, simpler maintenance and parts interchangeability. They simplify logistics, and at a lesser cost than a precisely machined steel framed gun.
Yet they perform... in the Real World... just as well as a steel gun.

I might question the choice of the SIG P320 over the S&W M&P...or the new Ruger American... although not the Glock (given the history of management problems and QC from that company).... and I have shot all of them.

But the Gov't will do what it will do. The troops pretty much have to deal, and learn, what is issued to them. During my Navy time in the Nam I wound up with an M-1 Garand and a WWII .38 S&W Victory revolver... until I could acquire a M-14 and a 'privately-acquired' Browning Hi-Power.

Troops deal with what they're given. I was suitably impressed with the P320... it will just take some changes in training over the DA/SA M-9 that is current issue. Training is ALWAYS the problem with a new weapon platform (former Navy Instructor's thoughts).

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1117 Posts

Posted - March 11 2017 :  7:52:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Colt lightweight is the same weight as the Sig320, although for the sake of argument the Sig is steel framed. The precisely machined gun though you have a point. I don't like the gimmiky trigger on the S&W. The new Ruger American is interesting. I guess I am old school in that I'd rather have a hammer outside, like a Sig 225. I have a few striker fired pistols, one my grand fathers .32 H&R from around 1928, and a Taurus plastic 9mm that only weighs 19 oz.Pistol Training always seems to be on the back burner. Thanks for the informative reply.Bill

Bill D
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3662 Posts

Posted - March 12 2017 :  4:45:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just read an article in SAR (Small Arms Review) magazine, that the FBI Marine SOG, and several others are adopting the Glock 19M, because it out preformed the SIG.

Is that gun rag vapor or real?

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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bandaidman
Advanced Member

USA
1236 Posts

Posted - March 12 2017 :  5:26:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My take on it is that with the ability to take out the "guts" of the SIG and change size of the gun as well as work on them there aren't any other guns out there that can do that.And while Glock has the name and All the special forces have switched to them that could be the reason for the Marines SOG going from their 45's to 9mm Glocks. That makes sense during mixed ops as running out of 45 and the SF guys only having 9mm makes it difficult to run.
FBI I haven't heard anything from any other source on them going to Glocks. They tend to be like weather in Utah if you don't like it wait 20 minutes and it (they will change)

“If for a while the harder you try, the harder it gets, take heart. So it has been with the best people who ever lived.
Jeffery Holland
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3662 Posts

Posted - March 15 2017 :  4:10:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Correction, the article was in SWAT magazine not SAR.

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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Richard B
Junior Member

USA
171 Posts

Posted - March 15 2017 :  7:00:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill D, It's funny you should mention the Colt Commander which was developed as a post-WWII replacement for the 1911. Nobody got the Army contract in 1950 or so due to budget issues, so Colt produced them for the civilian market.

Richard B

Don't take life so serious son, it ain't nohow permanent. Miz Beaver in Pogo
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gw
Advanced Member

3538 Posts

Posted - March 15 2017 :  7:46:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i don't know....

if you take it for granted that the SF community has influence in small arms selection in the Army, do you you think it's coincidence that retired CSM Kyle Lamb went to work for SIG about a year before the selection.

General Mattis was questioned during his confirmation hearing why the Army was taking so long to select a new handgun 2 weeks before the SIG 320 was announced, also a coincidence.

Army procurement has had a bad taste in it's mouth from dealing with the cost overruns at Colt for a while, that's why FN got the M4 contract

and finally the Colt Commander cost too much



"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1541 Posts

Posted - March 23 2017 :  03:14:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

All I know is this. If anybody thinks GI Joe is going to be able to walk into an armory chock full of assorted frames, and go shopping for the one that fits his hand just so, then he hasn't spent any time at all in uniform.

All this modular stuff makes for a good commercial, but your average grunt is still gonna have to deal with whatever he gets, and 9 times out of 10, it won't fit.

Just like his helmet, flak vest, sleeping bag . . .

Mike
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2558 Posts

Posted - March 23 2017 :  08:00:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

Hello,

All I know is this. If anybody thinks GI Joe is going to be able to walk into an armory chock full of assorted frames, and go shopping for the one that fits his hand just so, then he hasn't spent any time at all in uniform.

All this modular stuff makes for a good commercial, but your average grunt is still gonna have to deal with whatever he gets, and 9 times out of 10, it won't fit.

Just like his helmet, flak vest, sleeping bag . . .

Mike



+1! BTDT

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3538 Posts

Posted - March 23 2017 :  08:03:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
as long my boots fit I could deal with the rest....

the adaptable grip seemed to be the berries while the M&P was in the hunt, once it was passed up the idea sort of faded from veiw.

maybe someone in procurement has a fuzzy for SIG

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on March 23 2017 08:04:05 AM
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1117 Posts

Posted - March 23 2017 :  09:48:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ten Driver, GW, I sure agree with you..The 1911 system is pretty simple, rugged. For the 320 I see a box of modular parts at the supply end, springs etc. I wonder about the performance end though, fine sand in the sandbox or snow and ice in Siberia, or constant rust in the tropics. I am so old that my fathers generation trusted the 1911 everywhere. Me too. Nuff said, Bill D

Bill D
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jlwilliams
Junior Member

USA
220 Posts

Posted - March 28 2017 :  07:52:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love the 1911 as much as the next guy, but let's be real for a moment. Where is the notion that they should have adopted a 1911 variant really coming from? Is it really because a century old design with lots of small parts that have to be fit together by real gunsmiths is really a better fit for the Army's published requirements for this sidearm, or is this notion coming from nostalgia?

I question the requirement for a modular design that can be converted to different slide and grip combinations, but that's their call. I also question if the SIG fills the requirements better than Ruger (etc) or if SIG just paid for better liquor and prettier women at the selection event "after hour conferences" but again, what do I know. No matter what you or I question, the Army put out the call for a new hand gun. How on earth does the hand gun that was replaced by the old hand gun make sense as the new hand gun? It doesn't. Does the 1911 fulfill the requirements that the Army put out? No. Neither does Glock who is now filing suit over the spilled milk.

Nostalgia is great. I feel it too. Nostalgia was not among the required attributes for the new side arm.

The 1911 is a valid civilian side arm, but it's day in the saddle rode into the sunset a generation ago. Neither the 1911 nor the Garand will be rallying for a comeback. They are "heritage weapons" now.
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gw
Advanced Member

3538 Posts

Posted - March 28 2017 :  10:37:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
truth is the semi custom 1911s that have been in use since 911 have been beaten out by polymer 9mms

units that were still issuing .45s have authorized the use of weapons like the G19. In actual use operators were leaving their heavy malfunction prone 1911s stowed in the rear and carrying Glocks.

Poly 9mms are lighter, carry more ammo, and are easier to maintain.

whether the .45 is more effective than the 9mm is a moot pointt, 9mm ammo is lighter and more can be carried.

no one is looking to return to 1911s and will not going forward.

the real question is will operators run down to trade their Glocks for the new SIG, that I sort of doubt.....


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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