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 Expansion Failures from 127grain +P+ JHP?
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CW2 Ralph Long
Average Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - September 26 2013 :  10:33:00 AM  Show Profile  Click to see CW2 Ralph Long's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Anyone experienced expansion failures from 127grain WW +P+ JHP in Glock 4 and 4.48 in. barrels? WW has lowered the advertised 4" inch test barrel velocity from 1260 fps to 1250 fps. My chronograph is showing the Glock 19 velocity to average 1198 fps at 10 feet from the muzzle. That kind of decrease could result in a failure to expand for bullets at the lower end of the spectrum. My slowest bullet was tripping along at 1167 fps from the G19.

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may
come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Winston Churchill

The Fuzz
Senior Member

USA
897 Posts

Posted - March 15 2014 :  11:25:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just saw this, Winchester has been experiencing lower velocities since their move. Keith told me that a friend of his was having issues with them not expanding but in the streets it don't seem to be the case. I really like this round and hope that Winchester pulls their heads out of their butts soon.

Never get yourself into a situation that you can't talk, fight, or shoot yourself out of.
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Dave Williams
Starting Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - March 15 2014 :  2:39:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few years ago there was some talk they weren't expanding as they should.
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Evan
Administrator

33821 Posts

Posted - March 16 2014 :  1:34:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't seen any verifiable failures to expand. Gallo ain't people and never will be.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9097 Posts

Posted - March 17 2014 :  09:04:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess I'm not as optimistic as some others. We had a shooting nearby (in my county but not my outfit) in which the subject was shot 14 times. I'm told only about half of the bullets recovered at the scene were expanded.

Wasn't the 127 but it was closely related.

As Evan says...gelatin ain't people. Even if you try to make things fairly difficult by placing 4 layers of denim over it. It is a fair test to be able to compare one bullet to another *when* they expand. None of them expand 100% of the time.

Pistol expanding bullet technology is certainly better than it has ever been but there are no guarantees.

I've had the Win 9mm 127 +P+ fail to stop in critters but I don't think I've ever had one fail to expand (there were 5 however I did not recover).

Jim

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CW2 Ralph Long
Average Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - March 19 2014 :  11:25:42 AM  Show Profile  Click to see CW2 Ralph Long's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Jim,

I carry it every day in my Glock 17; the extra half in of barrel gives it about 35 fps more velocity than those that have 4 inch tubes. The expansion envelope appears to start around 1200 fps when shooting through heavy clothing. You seem to have used the WW 127 grain +p+ jhp a lot. Does it still have your confidence?

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may
come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Winston Churchill
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9097 Posts

Posted - March 19 2014 :  8:18:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CW2 Ralph Long

Jim,

I carry it every day in my Glock 17; the extra half in of barrel gives it about 35 fps more velocity than those that have 4 inch tubes. The expansion envelope appears to start around 1200 fps when shooting through heavy clothing. You seem to have used the WW 127 grain +p+ jhp a lot. Does it still have your confidence?



No .35 caliber has my confidence short of a .35 Remington (maybe a .351 Winchester or a .357 from a 16" barrel)...but I sense that wasn't your question....if you mean do I think it will expand as reliably as most other handgun designs I'd have to say yes, this load is one of the handful I'd pick if I carried a 9mm.

At present I'd also think the 135 Critical Duty, the Federal PD 135 (though a little light on velocity) and the 147 +P HST, and the Cor-Bon DPX would be right up there also (that list is not all inclusive, there are some +P 124 or 125 loads I'd probably accept).

I really liked the Triton 135+P Hi-vel (not the Qwik-Shok - I tried that one on game).... both of them went 1200 fps in my guns.

I've noted that the later lots of the Winchester are about 50 FPS slower than the first lots.

Jim

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dennis strapon
Advanced Member

USA
1094 Posts

Posted - March 24 2014 :  11:56:44 AM  Show Profile  Send dennis strapon an AOL message  Send dennis strapon a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I have a case of 500 rds of this load. It is about 3 1/2 years old. I looked at a few rounds yesterday and compared them to some older boxed from W-W. I noticed the newer rounds had bullets that had been tweaked somewhat. The notches around the bullet mouth is shallower, and the hollow point is not as deep. I don't have a Chrono so I can't report if there is a difference in velocity. If I can get any numbers off the boxes, is there any way W-W could tell me if the newer rounds were made in Illinois, or their new plant. I carry this load in a G-17, and want to be sure it will work.

dennis R. strapon

Edited by - dennis strapon on March 24 2014 11:57:08 AM
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Evan
Administrator

33821 Posts

Posted - March 24 2014 :  12:43:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, remember ammo companies load to pressure not to velocity. differences in powder burn rate or bullet size are critical factors.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Deputy25
Senior Member

USA
900 Posts

Posted - March 25 2014 :  6:05:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I carry my Glock 19 I normally load it with Speer GD 124+P. I do find myself carrying my issue 357 Sig Glock 31 most of the time, and occasionally my Sig P229 loaded with my issue 357 GD 125. The GD 125 chrono'ed just shy of 1400 in my 31, with similar velocities in the 229. I've fired quite a few rounds of 357 Sig into injured critters and never had a failure to expand with bullets that I recovered. I do have confidence in this .35 caliber.

Before all else, be armed. - Machiavelli
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dennis strapon
Advanced Member

USA
1094 Posts

Posted - March 26 2014 :  2:20:30 PM  Show Profile  Send dennis strapon an AOL message  Send dennis strapon a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis strapon

I have a case of 500 rds of this load. It is about 3 1/2 years old. I looked at a few rounds yesterday and compared them to some older boxed from W-W. I noticed the newer rounds had bullets that had been tweaked somewhat. The notches around the bullet mouth is shallower, and the hollow point is not as deep. I don't have a Chrono so I can't report if there is a difference in velocity. If I can get any numbers off the boxes, is there any way W-W could tell me if the newer rounds were made in Illinois, or their new plant. I carry this load in a G-17, and want to be sure it will work
I just checked all boxes of this round. They all were made in East Alton, Illinois. I hope these are all loaded to original pressures and Velocities. Any other experience.

dennis R. strapon
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CW2 Ralph Long
Average Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - March 31 2014 :  9:33:00 PM  Show Profile  Click to see CW2 Ralph Long's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Dennis,

I have two lots of WW 127 grain 9mm loaded in 2009 that averaged 1256 and 1261 fps over a 20 round run from a G17 Gen 3; the low was 1244 fps. The 2010 lot was averaging 1245 with a low of 1217 after 20 rounds from three different boxes.

This is so much closer to the factory specs than most rounds I've tested, I wouldn't worry.....except I have had and seen (TNOutdoors9) failures to expand from this load in Glock 19s after being shot through 4 layers of denim. The slow round from the 2010 lot in my G19 Gen 3 was 1167. It did not open up.

The longer barrel makes about 30 fps difference. Somewhere around 1185-1190 fps seems to be the low end of the expansion threshold for this round when fired through 4 layers of denim.

I feel confident in the expansion of the 127 +p+ in the Glock 17 and SIG 226. I have it in my G17 right now.

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may
come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Winston Churchill
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dennis strapon
Advanced Member

USA
1094 Posts

Posted - April 01 2014 :  3:08:02 PM  Show Profile  Send dennis strapon an AOL message  Send dennis strapon a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CW2 Ralph Long

Dennis,

I have two lots of WW 127 grain 9mm loaded in 2009 that averaged 1256 and 1261 fps over a 20 round run from a G17 Gen 3; the low was 1244 fps. The 2010 lot was averaging 1245 with a low of 1217 after 20 rounds from three different boxes.

This is so much closer to the factory specs than most rounds I've tested, I wouldn't worry.....except I have had and seen (TNOutdoors9) failures to expand from this load in Glock 19s after being shot through 4 layers of denim. The slow round from the 2010 lot in my G19 Gen 3 was 1167. It did not open up.Once again, Mr. Long, you may have the answer for me. I have mine loaded into a G-17. I also have some other Hot loads to use. Thank you Ralph. Dennis.

The longer barrel makes about 30 fps difference. Somewhere around 1185-1190 fps seems to be the low end of the expansion threshold for this round when fired through 4 layers of denim.

I feel confident in the expansion of the 127 +p+ in the Glock 17 and SIG 226. I have it in my G17 right now.


dennis R. strapon
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Chuck
Advanced Member

USA
3284 Posts

Posted - April 02 2014 :  10:55:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Winchester had a QC issue with letting some of the dies that make the hollow point cavity on the Ranger ammo get too dull, this led to the jacket skives not being cut correctly. Several LE OIS incidents where Ranger-T ammo failed to expand as it should before the problem was caught. This was a few years ago.
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LtBlue425
New Member

62 Posts

Posted - May 02 2014 :  12:36:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this ties into the 9mm +P+. About six years ago one of my crime scene techs mentioned in a staff meeting about a noticeable number of incidents where .40 S&W bullets were failing to expand and even penetrate very far. This was concerning to her and especially me since we're issued .40 Glocks. Digging into the cases it appeared the common thread was Winchester ammo, specifically the white box HP type frequently found at Walmart.

Even though Win white box doesn't have the greatest rep for SD use, the noted problems were quite curious. Figured a lower powered .40 should at least penetrate all the way thru a skull or frontal body shot. In our gel testing before switching from 9mm to .40 the Speer GD was impressive. Plus in a number of OIS it performed well unless stopped by a hidden gun or dinner plate belt buckle.

It wasn't two weeks after that staff meeting I got roused by the same tech for another .40 shooting. Same story. Range was 2-4' decedant struck center forehead at the brow line. Bullet did not exit. Ammo was the white box HP Win. Bullet was found unexpanded at rear of the skull. Really had me scratching my head.

This post made me think maybe a batch of low powered .40 left Winchester. Might explain what we were encountering at that time.

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ranvette
Starting Member

43 Posts

Posted - June 15 2014 :  07:28:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You never heard of any problems with 127 +P+ failing to expand 6 or 8 years ago.I have some from that time frame.It is a deeper hollow point and the serations are also deeper.I have to think this is the best version of the 127 bullet.They are nickle case and a cooper bullet.It was the same box as today but they say sxt on the box.
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buck
Advanced Member

1082 Posts

Posted - June 15 2014 :  09:10:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've never heard bad performance stories or even rumors about heavy HST in any caliber.
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ranvette
Starting Member

43 Posts

Posted - June 15 2014 :  09:28:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have not either but has there been any reports on shootings with it? I also never heard of any problems with 127 +P+ years back either.I do think the HST will penetrate a little less in a person if were talking 127 +P+ vers 124 +P and i also think the same for the 147 loads. All we can really go by is the older sxt 127 is a real good street performer.I really think the problem as of late is the latest bullet design and poor quality control for some reason.It just didnt go from great denim gel performance to iffy for no reason

Edited by - ranvette on June 15 2014 09:33:42 AM
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